Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many.

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

[Charlie Hungerford]

The Tribune - which is generally on the ball on railway matters - is reporting that the entire Limerick Junction - Rosslare section is being earmarked for closure along with the Nenagh branch.

It seems some secret deal has been trashed out between CIE and the department - they'll close Waterford-Rosslare now and then kill off the other two lines at some point in the near future.

The story isn't online yet but it's on page 2 of their printed edition.

[ACustomer]

This is the price which will be paid for the Ennis-Athenry line.

As always crude political pressures come out on top.

[Mark Gleeson]

You would be amazed, I did the numbers

Waterford-Rosslare per year approx 2.4-2.6million

WRC 2.5 million

Hmmm

[PLUMB LOCO]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

[dowlingm]

I note that if someone wanted to book Limerick-Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston to bump up their numbers, the booking program doesn't offer those journeys. Interesting...

When Athenry was disconnected, the line was left open as far as Ennis which despite a desperately slow line developed into a half-decent commuter service. IE should be instructed that on no account will they be allowed close the entire Nenagh Branch.

What they should be permitted to do is disconnect Nenagh-Ballybrophy on the understanding that the timetable be recast to reflect the current rail relay and replacement of any remaining jointed rail, with the objective of getting the current 62 minute timing down to something near the 50 minutes the 0745 Nenagh-Henry St bus takes. If more passengers can be attracted in Nenagh by a faster train than would be otherwise forgone, discontinue Birdhill (BE already serves Birdhill on the aforementioned 0745) and save a couple of minutes and some diesel on slowing down/accelerating there.

[ThomasJ]

heres the sunday tribune's piece
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news...on-collision-/

Rail closure plans set FF and Greens on collision course
Ken Griffin

IARNRÓD éireann's plans to embark on its first railway closures since the 1970s look set to cause a further rift between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.


Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe has indicated that his party will oppose the closures, which will sever direct railway links between the country's main southern population centres.


If the plans go ahead in full, rail passengers from Waterford would have to go via Dublin to reach Cork, Limerick and Wexford.


The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.


These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".


The plan has the support of the department but the Greens are concerned by the plans with Cuffe telling the Sunday Tribune that the lines played an important role in the party vision of providing a comprehensive railway service.


"Any change to the rail network must be done on the basis of sound social, environmental and economic analysis. Routes that are currently under-used may benefit from improved timetables, rosters and marketing."


Iarnród éireann's plans are likely to meet opposition from rail campaigners, who accuse it of deliberately undermining the financial viability of lines that it wants to close.


This newspaper has learned that railway services on the Waterford-Rosslare line are now so poor that Iarnród éireann spent €30,000 on taxi fares in 2009 to ferry staff between the two locations.


A company spokesman said the suspension of services on the Waterford-Rosslare line would generate substantial cost savings.


"The line serves areas with very low populations," he said.


Fine Gael transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the issue would be top of his party's agenda once the Dáil resumed after the St Patrick's Day break.


"I am concerned that the Green Party could be a party to the closure of transport services which reduce carbon emissions," he said.


He said he was shocked to learn of the talks between Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport.


"It's a joke. They seem to think they are unaccountable to the travelling public and the Dáil," said O'Dowd.

March 14, 2010

[dowlingm]

FG going on about emissions but in fairness, if IE are operating a 2700 (2-car, not a 2750) over the line, that's 84 tonnes and 117 seats to carry not many people - the passenger/km emissions numbers must be substantial compared to a bus with the same load.

[TomB]

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

Last Autumn we were visiting a friend in Waterford and took the train from Limerick. It was absolutely woeful. My wife nearly got sick from the ride of the train, and I was feeling fairly ropey too by the time we reached Waterford. It is difficult to describe the snail's pace that this train travels at -- it just feels sort of humiliating. There I was, someone who is generally in favour of rail transport, crawling along watching cars whizzing past on the N24, feeling rotten.

Haven't been between Waterford and Rosslare recently, but I assume it's the same. Went to Nenagh last year and that trip was also completely rotten.

Coming back from Waterford on the bus (it was a Sunday) was a much better experience. We even had a snooze -- not something you'd manage on the train unless you had serious narcoleptic tendencies! I can honestly say that anyone travelling from Limerick to Waterford would be better off getting the bus -- even if there wasn't an interminable wait at the Junction.

CIE/IE have been trying to close these lines for over 30 years. Have a look back at the Oireachtas archive and you'll see countless arguments against their closure.

Those arguments have won the day, for now. But keeping railway lines open because they look good on the map isn't helping anyone if the service is slow, uncomfortable and depressing.

Having said that, the best thing that IE could have done for these train lines is leak that they want to close them. Because that's the only time they ever get discussed. Who knows, one of these days we'll move beyond "don't close" and have a real discussion in this country about what we want those lines on a map to be for.

PS Plumb Loco - your response seems a little over the top there -- all Thomas Stamp was doing was commenting on how IE have been wilfully trying to close the line through poor service -- the same criticism that I presume you would make yourself...

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by TomB

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

What struck me was the numbers oft quoted of single digit passenger numbers bore no resemblance to the numbers I saw.

The most telling information is during the January cold snap the trains where full as the train offered the only way in to work, that shows there are enough people in the catchment area to make it work. Given the Barrow Bridge advantage there is no faster way from most towns in south Wexford to Waterford

While IE leaking this gets a debate going IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems, many of these problems are quite simple marketing and information issues.

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.ph...2010&no=2.html

as stated above there is a legal requirement to have a consulatation process, we will be at that.

[dowlingm]

One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

[Mark Gleeson]

I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project

[markpb]

I'm not familiar with the line at all but I wonder if the government would consider tendering out the operation of the line to a private company. They could take the railcars, subsidy and license from IR and offer them as a package to the operator. Line maintenance would remain with IR and some of the ticket sales would go to the government. Integrated ticketing with the rest of the IR network would be part and parcel because they wouldn't have any control over it.

A private company wouldn't have the baggage of IR and would have a strong incentive to operate a service people would want to use. IR would win because they'd lose a loss making service (but also lose the subsidy). They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

[dowlingm]

I think the ascension of Sean Connick to ministerial rank will do more to concentrate IE's mind than any notional private entrant.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats more or less what Irish Rail are trying to do. But the government have yet to put in place the legal requirements to allow it.

Ideally let them take over Galway Rosslare, but someone will have to put up money to pay to run the service.

Money + service specification => contract third party

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by markpb

They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

There may be a transfer of undertakings issue. http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/in...fundertakings/