Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored

[TomB]

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

Last Autumn we were visiting a friend in Waterford and took the train from Limerick. It was absolutely woeful. My wife nearly got sick from the ride of the train, and I was feeling fairly ropey too by the time we reached Waterford. It is difficult to describe the snail's pace that this train travels at -- it just feels sort of humiliating. There I was, someone who is generally in favour of rail transport, crawling along watching cars whizzing past on the N24, feeling rotten.

Haven't been between Waterford and Rosslare recently, but I assume it's the same. Went to Nenagh last year and that trip was also completely rotten.

Coming back from Waterford on the bus (it was a Sunday) was a much better experience. We even had a snooze -- not something you'd manage on the train unless you had serious narcoleptic tendencies! I can honestly say that anyone travelling from Limerick to Waterford would be better off getting the bus -- even if there wasn't an interminable wait at the Junction.

CIE/IE have been trying to close these lines for over 30 years. Have a look back at the Oireachtas archive and you'll see countless arguments against their closure.

Those arguments have won the day, for now. But keeping railway lines open because they look good on the map isn't helping anyone if the service is slow, uncomfortable and depressing.

Having said that, the best thing that IE could have done for these train lines is leak that they want to close them. Because that's the only time they ever get discussed. Who knows, one of these days we'll move beyond "don't close" and have a real discussion in this country about what we want those lines on a map to be for.

PS Plumb Loco - your response seems a little over the top there -- all Thomas Stamp was doing was commenting on how IE have been wilfully trying to close the line through poor service -- the same criticism that I presume you would make yourself...

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by TomB

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

What struck me was the numbers oft quoted of single digit passenger numbers bore no resemblance to the numbers I saw.

The most telling information is during the January cold snap the trains where full as the train offered the only way in to work, that shows there are enough people in the catchment area to make it work. Given the Barrow Bridge advantage there is no faster way from most towns in south Wexford to Waterford

While IE leaking this gets a debate going IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems, many of these problems are quite simple marketing and information issues.

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

[PLUMB LOCO]

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. I don't know where you get your 90% figure from and I can tell you as somebody who uses the line when possible, lived in a town served by it in the 1980s, it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees. If the Dublin/Cork line had a service similar to the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line and accordingly low numbers would you advocate closing it?

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees.

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

that is exactly what i said. RUI as a body has not got the luxury of being emotive and hot headed on an issue like this. What we do is present a cold hard argument regarding keeping services/standards ect. In that role we often get called upon by local groups and others to help them in their fights and their presentations to Government, TD's and the Stakeholders.

I hope everyone who is a member of RUI or is just a poster like Plumb Loco joins this facebook page and signs the petition. RUI will do its part as well.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

I don't know where you get your 90% figure from

Sorry, I probably didn't express that very well -- I wasn't making pot shots at posters here, merely making a wider observation that there will be the inevitable hoo-ha in local and national media about line closures and that lots of people will oppose closure based on the fact that rail lines are A Good Thing without any direct experience of the service in question.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

I know ride quality can be very subjective so we'll have to agree to differ on this point. All I can say is that going down by train and back up to Limerick by bus, the bus was more comfortable for us.

My contention is that this debate has been going on for years and years and what we've ended up with for the past 30 years is a line which is kept open (by a thread), loses a lot of money, and which provides a service which isn't very good.

Take a look at this Dáil debate from 1977 -- it feels like absolutely nothing has changed:

http://historical-debates.oireachtas...702220056.html

This is, of course, what bloody annoys me about Ennis-Athenry -- Ballybrophy-Limerick and Rosslare-Limerick Junction are textbook examples of a train service on a single track line providing a rubbish service uncompetitive with bus, yet we're going to do it all over again with Ennis-Athenry.

Mark's point about the comparative costs of Ennis-Athenry versus Junction-Rosslare are interesting -- the tragedy is of course for the price of the two we could have had a decent Junction Rosslare service which would have provided a template for successful 'Regional Rail' in this country

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems

Sure, absolutely. Which presents a dilemma. We all know that a combination of Victorian work practices lower down and a dearth of customer focus higher up results in a rail system that can be woeful and expensive. Which is of course why an organisation like RUI is badly needed -- to give a kick up the behind to IE in both departments.

The genesis of RUI was in the proposed closure of these lines 7 years ago. I'm just wondering aloud whether another situation where the lines are 'saved' would really benefit anyone significantly, if nothing else changes. Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by TomB

Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

i would hope so.

[Mark Gleeson]

I see the real problem of the regional lines being considered as separate entities, considered individually the potential is lower than if viewed as a combined entity, why can't you go from Galway to Rosslare as a single seat journey?

The numbers suggest if the Limerick Junc - Rosslare line got the basic rail safety program work, funds being already committed the extra cost in running a train every 2 hours would be more than offset by the savings from eliminating the manual signal cabins and crossings, resulting in a lower overall cost to provide a much better service. Given the low starting base numbers would grow significantly.

[ccos]

Got this letter from Mary White,

I love how she takes credit for the reopening of the WRC as if they had something to do with it. I think the line "It is important that in this grave financial situation that all our rail services be looked at." is the telling one here, they have no intention of stopping the closure.

Dear Ciaran,

Many thanks for your email and apologies for the delay in replying.

My understanding of the current situation regarding the closing of the Wexford Waterford rail line is that no decision has yet been made and no decision with regard to the future of the line will be made without consideration of all factors. It is important that in this grave financial situation that all our rail services be looked at.

The Green Party remains committed to investing in public transport. We have safeguarded many public transport projects over the last three years as well as increasing the proportion of transport spending going into public transport as against private transport. Delivery of projects, such as, the western rail corridor, and safeguarding of projects, such as, metro north in Dublin and the rural transport scheme throughout the country are evidence of this. We have not forgotten the importance to rural communities of providing public transport, be it rail, bus or enhanced opportunities for those who wish to cycle or walk.

Thank you again for your email.
Regards
Mary White T.D.

and my response

Dear Mary

My understanding is the line is to be closed.

The reopening of the WRC was planned and already underway before the Green party entered the current government. The closure of the Waterford, Rosslare line however is being planned and will get underway while your party is in government.

It is nice to talk of commitment but quite another to stay committed.

For shame

Ciarán

[PLUMB LOCO]

ccos - Like you I keep on hammering away at the Greens hoping that they will wake up before they follow the Dodo into extinction. My last letter to Ciaran Cuffe about the South Wexford line below:

To: ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie
Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 11:48

Dear Ciaran,

Many thanks for your reply but I'm not impressed by the content. CIE will have this line closed long before anything is done. I am a long time Green supporter, although not a member, and have always voted Green since the option presented itself but I assure you if you let this closure go ahead I will activley campaign against the party on every forum possible.

Best wishes,

[ccos]

plumb Loco,
You are right, the Greens are the key.
Since NAMA they have no credibility if the responsibility for a railway closure can be laid on their mat they will have lost their raison d´étre.