Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored

Thomas J Stamp · 10-03-2010, 22:47

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

comcor · 11-03-2010, 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

"alternative methods" = Bus.

Which ends up getting cancelled eventually anyway.

The bus service that was put in place to replace the Mallow-Waterford line when it closed is one of those shelved in the recent round of cuts. Give it enough time and the same thing will be done in Wexford.

PLUMB LOCO · 11-03-2010, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many.

Mark Gleeson · 11-03-2010, 18:43

There is a legal consultation period before IE can do anything.

We have a defined policy on regional routes and naturally will only make a formal statement once the committee has met and discussed the matter. Its not the first time this issue has arisen however we need to determine how real this is first.

dowlingm · 12-03-2010, 03:25

The other problem with the "replacement" service is that it doesn't appear on the IE timetable since it's a BE service, so what little feed trickles through onto the rest of the network disappears because it's not convenient for casual browsers to make connections.

That said, I looked at the route in Google Maps and it's one field after another and not even a bullet straight route like Glounthaune-Youghal at that, instead winding along with plenty of LCs and the opening Barrow bridge to be maintained.

Ironically, one of the things IE blame for not being able to run later is that the 1720 ex Waterford is crewed from Waterford, and the bus from Rosslare they get back to base leaves at 1900. If it left 15-20 minutes later, it could pick up trade from the 1933 arrival ex Heuston as well as those still trying to get across the river from where most people work. That would mean the crew would miss their bus... or Bus Eireann could be asked to delay their service by 15 minutes. Nah, that would violate Mary Harney's precious competition between rail and bus.

At the very least IE should be leaned on to redirect that equipment to Carlow for a commuter service - it's a bit ridiculous that there's no arrival from that side into Waterford before 0945.

Thomas J Stamp · 13-03-2010, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many.

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

Charlie Hungerford · 14-03-2010, 10:54

The Tribune - which is generally on the ball on railway matters - is reporting that the entire Limerick Junction - Rosslare section is being earmarked for closure along with the Nenagh branch.

It seems some secret deal has been trashed out between CIE and the department - they'll close Waterford-Rosslare now and then kill off the other two lines at some point in the near future.

The story isn't online yet but it's on page 2 of their printed edition.

ACustomer · 14-03-2010, 12:29

This is the price which will be paid for the Ennis-Athenry line.

As always crude political pressures come out on top.

Mark Gleeson · 14-03-2010, 13:04

You would be amazed, I did the numbers

Waterford-Rosslare per year approx 2.4-2.6million

WRC 2.5 million

Hmmm

PLUMB LOCO · 14-03-2010, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

dowlingm · 14-03-2010, 22:36

I note that if someone wanted to book Limerick-Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston to bump up their numbers, the booking program doesn't offer those journeys. Interesting...

When Athenry was disconnected, the line was left open as far as Ennis which despite a desperately slow line developed into a half-decent commuter service. IE should be instructed that on no account will they be allowed close the entire Nenagh Branch.

What they should be permitted to do is disconnect Nenagh-Ballybrophy on the understanding that the timetable be recast to reflect the current rail relay and replacement of any remaining jointed rail, with the objective of getting the current 62 minute timing down to something near the 50 minutes the 0745 Nenagh-Henry St bus takes. If more passengers can be attracted in Nenagh by a faster train than would be otherwise forgone, discontinue Birdhill (BE already serves Birdhill on the aforementioned 0745) and save a couple of minutes and some diesel on slowing down/accelerating there.

ThomasJ · 14-03-2010, 22:48

heres the sunday tribune's piece
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news...on-collision-/

Quote:

Rail closure plans set FF and Greens on collision course
Ken Griffin

IARNRÓD éireann's plans to embark on its first railway closures since the 1970s look set to cause a further rift between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.

Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe has indicated that his party will oppose the closures, which will sever direct railway links between the country's main southern population centres.

If the plans go ahead in full, rail passengers from Waterford would have to go via Dublin to reach Cork, Limerick and Wexford.

The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.

These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".

The plan has the support of the department but the Greens are concerned by the plans with Cuffe telling the Sunday Tribune that the lines played an important role in the party vision of providing a comprehensive railway service.

"Any change to the rail network must be done on the basis of sound social, environmental and economic analysis. Routes that are currently under-used may benefit from improved timetables, rosters and marketing."

Iarnród éireann's plans are likely to meet opposition from rail campaigners, who accuse it of deliberately undermining the financial viability of lines that it wants to close.

This newspaper has learned that railway services on the Waterford-Rosslare line are now so poor that Iarnród éireann spent €30,000 on taxi fares in 2009 to ferry staff between the two locations.

A company spokesman said the suspension of services on the Waterford-Rosslare line would generate substantial cost savings.

"The line serves areas with very low populations," he said.

Fine Gael transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the issue would be top of his party's agenda once the Dáil resumed after the St Patrick's Day break.

"I am concerned that the Green Party could be a party to the closure of transport services which reduce carbon emissions," he said.

He said he was shocked to learn of the talks between Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport.

"It's a joke. They seem to think they are unaccountable to the travelling public and the Dáil," said O'Dowd.

March 14, 2010

dowlingm · 14-03-2010, 22:52

FG going on about emissions but in fairness, if IE are operating a 2700 (2-car, not a 2750) over the line, that's 84 tonnes and 117 seats to carry not many people - the passenger/km emissions numbers must be substantial compared to a bus with the same load.

Thomas J Stamp · 16-03-2010, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.ph...2010&no=2.html

as stated above there is a legal requirement to have a consulatation process, we will be at that.

dowlingm · 16-03-2010, 20:04

One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

Mark Gleeson · 16-03-2010, 20:28

I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project

on the move · 13-03-2010, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

Let's examine the alternative arrangements:

1. Bus

So the bus it is then.

I have looked at trying to travel between the two towns when I'm in the area, but surprise surprise the times don't suit.

IE have a fair point when they say it's a loss-making line, but that could be said of many routes across the country. They can't close them all.

PLUMB LOCO · 13-03-2010, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by on the move

Let's examine the alternative arrangements:

1. Bus

So the bus it is then.

I have looked at trying to travel between the two towns when I'm in the area, but surprise surprise the times don't suit.

IE have a fair point when they say it's a loss-making line, but that could be said of many routes across the country. They can't close them all.

IE do not have a fair point - there's not a line in the country that doesn't lose money so perhaps the entire system should close down??

dowlingm · 13-03-2010, 18:35

Plumb - the reality is that they get a subsidy to keep the lines open but they have undoubtedly been told by Finance that tough times are ahead.

However, if BE ever pulled off a route that money could be made from, Citylink or Aircoach or somebody would have the option of applying to operate it. Obviously not the case for IE with the exception of someone being mad enough to buy some 1600mm stock and start an ROI-NI service (and negotiate for slots and station access).

IE are in the position of competing against the road companies (and to a limited extent Ryanair/Aer Arann) which makes publishing financial data tricky but holding a total monopoly position over the use of publicly-owned infrastructure. This is why it's an imperative to disengage operations from network, so that the network operator can maintain the trackage to a standard irrespective of whether it's useful to IE or not.

10-03-2010, 22:47	#1
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm) "alternative methods" = Bus. disgrace. __________________ We are the passengers

11-03-2010, 18:43	#4
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There is a legal consultation period before IE can do anything. We have a defined policy on regional routes and naturally will only make a formal statement once the committee has met and discussed the matter. Its not the first time this issue has arisen however we need to determine how real this is first. __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

14-03-2010, 13:04	#9
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	You would be amazed, I did the numbers Waterford-Rosslare per year approx 2.4-2.6million WRC 2.5 million Hmmm __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

16-03-2010, 20:28	#16
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

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12-03-2010, 03:25	#5
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	The other problem with the "replacement" service is that it doesn't appear on the IE timetable since it's a BE service, so what little feed trickles through onto the rest of the network disappears because it's not convenient for casual browsers to make connections. That said, I looked at the route in Google Maps and it's one field after another and not even a bullet straight route like Glounthaune-Youghal at that, instead winding along with plenty of LCs and the opening Barrow bridge to be maintained. Ironically, one of the things IE blame for not being able to run later is that the 1720 ex Waterford is crewed from Waterford, and the bus from Rosslare they get back to base leaves at 1900. If it left 15-20 minutes later, it could pick up trade from the 1933 arrival ex Heuston as well as those still trying to get across the river from where most people work. That would mean the crew would miss their bus... or Bus Eireann could be asked to delay their service by 15 minutes. Nah, that would violate Mary Harney's precious competition between rail and bus. At the very least IE should be leaned on to redirect that equipment to Carlow for a commuter service - it's a bit ridiculous that there's no arrival from that side into Waterford before 0945.

14-03-2010, 10:54	#7
Charlie Hungerford Regular Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 37	The Tribune - which is generally on the ball on railway matters - is reporting that the entire Limerick Junction - Rosslare section is being earmarked for closure along with the Nenagh branch. It seems some secret deal has been trashed out between CIE and the department - they'll close Waterford-Rosslare now and then kill off the other two lines at some point in the near future. The story isn't online yet but it's on page 2 of their printed edition.

14-03-2010, 12:29	#8
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	This is the price which will be paid for the Ennis-Athenry line. As always crude political pressures come out on top.

14-03-2010, 22:36	#11
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	I note that if someone wanted to book Limerick-Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston to bump up their numbers, the booking program doesn't offer those journeys. Interesting... When Athenry was disconnected, the line was left open as far as Ennis which despite a desperately slow line developed into a half-decent commuter service. IE should be instructed that on no account will they be allowed close the entire Nenagh Branch. What they should be permitted to do is disconnect Nenagh-Ballybrophy on the understanding that the timetable be recast to reflect the current rail relay and replacement of any remaining jointed rail, with the objective of getting the current 62 minute timing down to something near the 50 minutes the 0745 Nenagh-Henry St bus takes. If more passengers can be attracted in Nenagh by a faster train than would be otherwise forgone, discontinue Birdhill (BE already serves Birdhill on the aforementioned 0745) and save a couple of minutes and some diesel on slowing down/accelerating there.

14-03-2010, 22:52	#13
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	FG going on about emissions but in fairness, if IE are operating a 2700 (2-car, not a 2750) over the line, that's 84 tonnes and 117 seats to carry not many people - the passenger/km emissions numbers must be substantial compared to a bus with the same load.

16-03-2010, 20:04	#15
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

13-03-2010, 18:35	#19
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	Plumb - the reality is that they get a subsidy to keep the lines open but they have undoubtedly been told by Finance that tough times are ahead. However, if BE ever pulled off a route that money could be made from, Citylink or Aircoach or somebody would have the option of applying to operate it. Obviously not the case for IE with the exception of someone being mad enough to buy some 1600mm stock and start an ROI-NI service (and negotiate for slots and station access). IE are in the position of competing against the road companies (and to a limited extent Ryanair/Aer Arann) which makes publishing financial data tricky but holding a total monopoly position over the use of publicly-owned infrastructure. This is why it's an imperative to disengage operations from network, so that the network operator can maintain the trackage to a standard irrespective of whether it's useful to IE or not.