[Article] Healy Eames to appeal fine for boarding train without ticket

[James Howard]

The flaw with the current approach is that you will always be able to travel between Sligo, Belfast and Rosslare on the excuse that you got on in Broombridge. Judging by the state of the new shelters in Enfield and Kilcock, TVMs aren't going to last too long there either. I have also noticed that our ticket office (at Edgeworthstown - no TVM) has taken to being closed randomly in the morning once or twice a month.

[Thomas J Stamp]

i am not an expert on the TVMs, but i imagine they must be connected to some central computer in IE, which could easily then be hooked up to the reservation system and to the internet fare promotion system.

as for the sligo line thing, IE have been handing out little proof of boarding passes at boombridge (not sure how often it is) so there is a way of doing this. Having a crowd control thing using barriers would ensure that everyone gets one too.

Surely there are commuter stations in as bad, if not worse, places than BB though, cant IE look at how they are staffed/run?

[comcor]

London Fields comes to mind, but with 200K passengers a year, it may be worth the hassle.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are fairly significant issues with the TVM fares engine in terms of updating fares, but the ability to book etc could added fairly easily.

The goal is to have a TVM at every single station

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

1. Put TVM's into each station which is going to be unmanned, and make them issue all tickets and also accept all notes (as posted above) - it should also by default offer you the best value ticket.

The problem here is both legal and practical.

Legally, only a certain number of coins (50?) can be given in change and practically, there is only so much change that a machine can stock. Given that most stations aren't like a supermarket where change can be topped-up easily, this is a real issue (main and commuter statiosn will have a fair few people paying with coin). If you are buying, say, a €60 ticket and you insert two €50 notes, do you really want €40 back in €2 coins (or worse!).

2. In those stations where a TVM is not going to be safe, a notice in big letters to the effect that passengers from this station may pay on exit will be displayed. I undertsand that IE sometimes have staff in Boombridge handing out little validation slips to prove you are there.

In Britain there is a system where there is a very basic machine that issues a 'ticket' that simply has the station and what time/date. There may or may not be a small charge.

3. No ticket sales on trains.

On some routes, it can be more practical to sell the tickets on the train. And you may be stuck with having to sell family/child tickets.

The other alternative is to have TVM's on trains, and you just know some smartass will be saying how they were on the Dublin-Cork train last month and used one, and when he got on the four car DART there wasnt one and thats why he has no ticket, so you can see why it may not be a runner.

Admittedly, DART is a gated system - except for Broombridge.

Originally Posted by comcor

London Fields comes to mind, but with 200K passengers a year, it may be worth the hassle.

What do you mean?

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The goal is to have a TVM at every single station

You'll have to put in a new one at Broombridge every couple of days

[Mark Gleeson]

Its never been tried

Broombridge is actually in much better condition than the past. Irish Rail actually cleaned the station up and the vandals haven't yet returned to destroy it.

[Inniskeen]

It didn't look too cleaned up the last time I passed through (about two weeks ago) - there was the remains of a recent fire on the up platform.

[dowlingm]

Fined senator to meet Iarnrod Eireann about improving policies

[Thomas Ralph]

Or... how about this? People should allow sufficient time to buy/collect tickets, and travel on the booked train.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Senator Healy Eames gets the nail on the head here:

With the amount of publicity this issue has garnered a number of emailers have offered to be a witness to tickets being sold on board by Iarnrod Eireann (IE). The majority of comments and posts indicate that people thought, as I did, that you could purchase a ticket on board and not break the law. Thus, practice confuses and the public are fined.”

As i posted above, a policy of having ticket sellers on board contradicts the policy of "you must have a valid ticket before boarding the train"

even i am not as cynical as to suggest that this is actually a deliberate policy, i can understand that given the Boombridge situation (the Senator also mentions Thomastown) there may be a need for ticket sellers (or a voucher system at stations which are unable to sell tickets). However, why was there ticket selelrs on the Galway line? Any stations in that state there?

If you have a train on a line with all open stations still with ticket sellers, what message does that send out?

[Traincustomer]

Stations such as Clonmel and Rathdrum have text on the station specific timetable posters telling one to buy before boarding (evidently impossible due to the lack of either a ticket office or a TVM). Regular passengers are aware that it's customary to purchase from the ticket checker onboard the train. But this conflicting information between what the timetable poster says and what is practice on the ground can lead to confusion and undue worry for casual users.

To illustrate: whilst waiting at Rathdrum a few months ago a few intending passengers arrived who were evidently tourists (clearly had been camping/walking in the mountains). They were quite concerned about how to buy tickets. I assured them they could purchase from the ticket checker on the train. In due course the train came and they were seated at the opposite end of my carriage and purchased their tickets from the checker no problem. This happening is clear evidence that ticketing arrangements were unclear/conflicting/confusing to casual/occasional users/tourists.

Information at stations needs to be specific and national information templates need to be refined to reflect local/station specific arrangements. Every station should have information on display that accurately reflects the situation at that station. The test being that can a newcomer who has never used the station and knows very little about the Irish railway system can quickly and clearly discern what s/he must do in order to buy a ticket i.e. buy from ticket office/TVM or buy from checker on the train.

[Mark Gleeson]

The information at Athenry was specific to Athenry, i.e. it said Athenry station, and was on display at 3 locations within the station.

Woodlawn and Attymon are not staffed on the Galway line

What Irish Rail are doing is completely compatible with the law, i.e sell a ticket or fine, the law provides no guidelines on when to choose which option.

Note Irish Rail rely on the 'intent to defraud' under the rail safety act, which is almost impossible to prove, so far too many cases are thrown out at district court, were as Luas relies on a much easier 'failed/unable to produce a valid ticket' which is a much easier case.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Thomas Ralph

Or... how about this? People should allow sufficient time to buy/collect tickets, and travel on the booked train.

I have joined the 0635 from Galway at Athenry on numerous occasions and have never seen it depart Athenry early, although with so much padding in the timetables early departures are unacceptably common throughout the system. Galway/Athenry is fairly sharply timed and while an early departure from Athenry is possible, it is difficult to achieve given the temporary speed limit in the vicinity of Galway station unless the train also departs Gaway ahead of schedule.

Unlike Cork, early departures from Galway are not, in my experience, the norm.

[Traincustomer]

In relation to my post I was just pointing out the situation at the stations referred to and wasn't making any reference or inference to Athenry. I wasn't making any judgment on legalities either.

I was making the point that the information at these locations is less than clear and less than user friendly. I feel this is quite fair comment and given this is the sort of stuff being discussed in this thread I felt it was worth a mention here.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok, fair enough it doesn't concern the Galway line so perhaps I shouldn't have bothered posting it.

[Pilotman]

Its getting very close to the point where Irish Rail will have to have staff at the entrance gate of the station to meet and greet potential passengers.

Hold their hands, Guide them gently to the ticket machines or booking office and then bring them to the train. Make sure they sit down and are comfortable and then the train may leave.

Passengers are supposed to be in the stations in time to buy a ticket - if not they put up with the consequences.

Gates, at certain stations, are allegedly to be closed a few minutes before the departure of the train.

Has anyone any information on how often did this person had to buy a ticket on the train. Is it by any chance a 'habit' not to buy one in the station ???? Be interesting to find out.

This is a grown up person who knows the score. She is in a government position who should know better.

Me thinks she has done or attempted to do this before and the staff were getting fed up with it. The attitude may be 'don't you know who I am'. Don't question me mentality.

She got caught, didn't like it and screamed - tough. Pay up love - next please.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Pilotman

Its getting very close to the point where Irish Rail will have to have staff at the entrance gate of the station to meet and greet potential passengers.

Hold their hands, Guide them gently to the ticket machines or booking office and then bring them to the train. Make sure they sit down and are comfortable and then the train may leave.

Passengers are supposed to be in the stations in time to buy a ticket - if not they put up with the consequences.

Gates, at certain stations, are allegedly to be closed a few minutes before the departure of the train.

Has anyone any information on how often did this person had to buy a ticket on the train. Is it by any chance a 'habit' not to buy one in the station ???? Be interesting to find out.

This is a grown up person who knows the score. She is in a government position who should know better.

Me thinks she has done or attempted to do this before and the staff were getting fed up with it. The attitude may be 'don't you know who I am'. Don't question me mentality.

She got caught, didn't like it and screamed - tough. Pay up love - next please.

Irish Rail should consider using the following wording on their website and at stations

"If you board a train where you could have bought (or collected) a ticket at a ticket office or from a ticket machine you risk a fine should you be challenged by staff on board the train or at the point of dis-embarkation". Covers all eventualities and inconsistencies.

There is still a potential problem if a station which is supposed to be staffed is not or if ticket machines are not accessible or working. I did have a recent experience whereby I booked a ticket online for collection at a station which was unstaffed (when it should have been staffed). Evntually picked up the ticket at Heuston having completed the outward part of the journey.

[plant43]

It should be as simple as "Buy a ticket at the station or pay more for it on the train (and not be able to avail of any discounts if bought on the train)".

[Inniskeen]

So what should I have done when having arrived at the station (about 15 minutes before departure) and being unable to collect my already purchased ticket and unable to buy another ?

You cannot oblige people to have a ticket before boarding a train if it is not reasonably possible to do so.

Consistency is vital in these matters unless Irish Rail want to shell out shed loads of money compensating people.

While the Senator is probably more at fault than Irish Rail in the incident which triggered this discussion, the inconsistent approach on Irish Rail's part will probably ensure the Senator pays no fine !

[Mark Gleeson]

Buried in the rules, allows a passenger to travel with a document which is exchangeable for a ticket to travel. So if you can't collect the ticket if you have a print out of the reservation or can show it on a phone you shouldn't have problems.

On trains carrying a ticket checker or train host, they should be carrying a train manifest with all reservations listed.

The inconsistency lies with the distinction between a ticket checker and an RPU officer, ticket checkers can't issue fines.