[11/01/2012] Some severe delays to Northern Line

Colm Moore · 11-01-2012, 08:55

Signalling fault at Balbriggan has caused delays on the Northern Line of up to 45 minutes. Returning to normal. Some knock-on effects on northside DARTs.

Inniskeen · 11-01-2012, 12:43

I understood the issue was a train failure rather than a signalling failure. The failed 0647 from Drogheda (6 x 2800) was eventually taken out of service and shunted clear at Skerries. The following train started from Drogheda in the path of the 0630 from Dundalk, as that train (8 x 2800) was experiencing difficulties in Dundalk and was about 25 minutes late departing.

Despite having four or five trains quequed one after the other, Irish Rail insisted in stopping already heavily delayed services at all scheduled stops thus maximising disruption, overcrowding and inconvenience. Surely they could develope a more intelligent contingency plan to deal with scenarios of this nature.

karlr42 · 11-01-2012, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Surely they could develope a more intelligent contingency plan to deal with scenarios of this nature.

There really seems to be no kind of contingency plan written down within IE. That's my biggest problem with them to be honest, that when something goes wrong everything falls apart and it is clear there is no plan in place to work around the problem.

A simple exercise in looking at possible failures at various locations, categorising them by chance of happening and severity, coming up with a standard workaround and distributing this to CTC and managers to consult and hopefully find a matching failure and follow the workaround would do wonders. At present it seems the response is very ad-hoc.

Rashers · 11-01-2012, 22:16

I am told they used the northbound Pearse - Drogheda service around 7.30am as an inbound service to relieve some of the overcrowding...
They then stopped the Enterprise at suburban stations to Drogheda. It was only about 5 mins late arriving in Skerries, so assume it was not that badly delayed overall. Just shows you how much padding there now is in the timetables...

Pilotman · 12-01-2012, 16:15

I'm just reading this thread and wonder what Irish Rail has to do to solve all problems.

We've people here who'd like IE to bypass stations when a problem occurs like the one described here.

However, there will also be people who'd say why should they have to get off a train and wait for the next one just because IE decides to bypass some stations. Apart from the obvious delay of trying to get people to get off which would only cause further delay its surely better to stop the trains at their scheduled stops and not upset people even further.

I know if I was after getting on a train in say Drogheda going to Rush and Lusk and being told in Skerries that I'd have to get off my train and wait for the next one because the train I was on wasn't now going to stop at Rush and Lusk I'd be more than annoyed.

I'm sure there are people here would feel the same.

Colm Moore · 12-01-2012, 16:53

Sure, nobody should be 'screwed over', but at the same time maximum benefit should be obtained in any time recovery situation.

Every stop with a commuter train means a 2 minute delay. Skipping a few stops can make a very late train into a tolerably late one. It can also prevent knock-on effects to subsequent trains. A delayed train will tend to have a queue of trains behind it, but nothing in front of it for a substantial distance.

If a train from Drogheda with 300 people on board is twenty minutes late at Gormanstown due to a signal issue and skipping 5 stops will make it 10 minutes late, then 3,000 person minutes can be regained. Perhaps 300 passengers for intermediate stations are inconvenienced by a further 3 minutes (the time between the front train and the next train). That is a loss of 900 person minutes. Net gain 2,100 person minutes (35 working hours).

It's not ideal, but it's making the best if a bad situation.

longword · 12-01-2012, 22:28

As a Laytown passenger I have a bit more info to add on this one, and I think there may have been two separate train failures.

When I got to the station a little before 07:30, the service that normally runs at 07:18 (an 8-carriage 2800 I think) was just pulling away. At that point the PIS was saying there had been a train fault at Balbriggan and delays were to be expected.

The 07:30 to Connolly, a 4-carriage 29k, appeared about 10 minutes later and sat at the platform for a bit while half its regulars plus most of the users of the next service (scheduled as 07:43) boarded. Then around 07:50 the driver told us all to disembark, the doors closed, and he headed off southbound never to be seen again. The PIS was saying Dublin Bus was accepting rail tickets. There were no platform announcements at any point in the morning.

The 07:43 service to Bray, an 8-carriage 29k, showed up around 08:00 and it was mostly plain sailing from there - there weren't many passengers left
on the platforms on the way in, and it ended up less overcrowded than most morning trains. On the way I did notice the northbound Enterprise stopped at Balbriggan as we passed, and a 2800 laid up at the Skerries siding.

I think what happened was that delayed 07:18 2800 train also failed (I heard mumbles of a door problem) around Balbriggan. I suspect the 4-carriage 29k that left Laytown empty, plus the redirected Northbound train Rashers mentioned, were used to serve passengers from the earlier failed services from Balbriggan in.

The Bray train I ended up on actually terminated at Connolly, but at least the driver was communicative and clear. It was announced at Donabate (its last stop before Connolly) and as the train was approaching Connolly the driver let us know we'd be pulling in at platform 4 and that there was a Greystones DART right behind us that would be arriving at platform 5.

It may just be that Irish Rail did a smarter and better job of managing the failures than might first appear. On the flip side it does make you wonder why the 2800s aren't being rushed towards the scrap heap. They seem to be at the bottom of every major Northern Commuter delay.

Thomas Ralph · 14-01-2012, 15:34

Welcome to the board.

The replacement of stock is a knock-on game. Once the next batch of 22000s is in, it can replace the 29000s used on the Sligo line, which can then replace 2800s on commuter services. Probably.

Inniskeen · 15-01-2012, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by longword

As a Laytown passenger I have a bit more info to add on this one, and I think there may have been two separate train failures.

It may just be that Irish Rail did a smarter and better job of managing the failures than might first appear. On the flip side it does make you wonder why the 2800s aren't being rushed towards the scrap heap. They seem to be at the bottom of every major Northern Commuter delay.

As far as I can determine there were indeed two failures - the 0630 from Dundalk and the 0647 from Drogheda, the first 8x2800, the second 6x2800. The set rostered for the 0712 from Drogheda departed around 0656 to substitute for the Dundalk service. The delayed 0630 from Dundalk service left Drogheda as the late running 0712 from Drogheda.

The other two elements in the jigsaw appear to be the turning back of the 0709 Pearse to Drogheda (at Skerries ?). This train, I believe, provided the first southbound service for approximately an hour. It was closely followed by at least three other trains, all of which meandered along in accordance with their normal stopping pattern, the leading trains heavily overcrowded, the later ones lightly loaded. The obvious approach should be to reduce the number of stops on the more heavily delayed services thus potentially reducing delays for thousands of passengers by anything up to 30 minutes.

As for the empty train from Laytown, I would gues that this ran empty to Drogheda (via Mosney) to operate a reduced formation 0835 from Drogheda.

dowlingm · 15-01-2012, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by longword

On the flip side it does make you wonder why the 2800s aren't being rushed towards the scrap heap. They seem to be at the bottom of every major Northern Commuter delay.

One wonders if maintenance windows are being stretched because the new 22K consists aren't available for service?

Seannew1 · 21-01-2012, 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by longword

.

The Bray train I ended up on actually terminated at Connolly, but at least the driver was communicative and clear. It was announced at Donabate (its last stop before Connolly) and as the train was approaching Connolly the driver let us know we'd be pulling in at platform 4 and that there was a Greystones DART right behind us that would be arriving at platform 5.
.

Thats unusual from an IE train driver to do!!!From my experience there seems to be only one driver on the northern line who actually makes announcements,he seems to drive either the 6.30 or 7.10 train from dundalk,but seriously it's ridiculous when delays come and you get absolutely no explanation from the driver why the delay has arised.

11-01-2012, 08:55	#1
Colm Moore Local Liaison Officer Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,442	[11/01/2012] Some severe delays to Northern Line Signalling fault at Balbriggan has caused delays on the Northern Line of up to 45 minutes. Returning to normal. Some knock-on effects on northside DARTs. __________________

11-01-2012, 22:16	#4
Rashers Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 431	I am told they used the northbound Pearse - Drogheda service around 7.30am as an inbound service to relieve some of the overcrowding... They then stopped the Enterprise at suburban stations to Drogheda. It was only about 5 mins late arriving in Skerries, so assume it was not that badly delayed overall. Just shows you how much padding there now is in the timetables... __________________ Last edited by Rashers : 13-01-2012 at 22:29.

12-01-2012, 16:53	#6
Colm Moore Local Liaison Officer Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,442	Sure, nobody should be 'screwed over', but at the same time maximum benefit should be obtained in any time recovery situation. Every stop with a commuter train means a 2 minute delay. Skipping a few stops can make a very late train into a tolerably late one. It can also prevent knock-on effects to subsequent trains. A delayed train will tend to have a queue of trains behind it, but nothing in front of it for a substantial distance. If a train from Drogheda with 300 people on board is twenty minutes late at Gormanstown due to a signal issue and skipping 5 stops will make it 10 minutes late, then 3,000 person minutes can be regained. Perhaps 300 passengers for intermediate stations are inconvenienced by a further 3 minutes (the time between the front train and the next train). That is a loss of 900 person minutes. Net gain 2,100 person minutes (35 working hours). It's not ideal, but it's making the best if a bad situation. __________________

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11-01-2012, 12:43	#2
Inniskeen Really Regular Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 951	I understood the issue was a train failure rather than a signalling failure. The failed 0647 from Drogheda (6 x 2800) was eventually taken out of service and shunted clear at Skerries. The following train started from Drogheda in the path of the 0630 from Dundalk, as that train (8 x 2800) was experiencing difficulties in Dundalk and was about 25 minutes late departing. Despite having four or five trains quequed one after the other, Irish Rail insisted in stopping already heavily delayed services at all scheduled stops thus maximising disruption, overcrowding and inconvenience. Surely they could develope a more intelligent contingency plan to deal with scenarios of this nature.

12-01-2012, 16:15	#5
Pilotman New to the board Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 12	I'm just reading this thread and wonder what Irish Rail has to do to solve all problems. We've people here who'd like IE to bypass stations when a problem occurs like the one described here. However, there will also be people who'd say why should they have to get off a train and wait for the next one just because IE decides to bypass some stations. Apart from the obvious delay of trying to get people to get off which would only cause further delay its surely better to stop the trains at their scheduled stops and not upset people even further. I know if I was after getting on a train in say Drogheda going to Rush and Lusk and being told in Skerries that I'd have to get off my train and wait for the next one because the train I was on wasn't now going to stop at Rush and Lusk I'd be more than annoyed. I'm sure there are people here would feel the same.

12-01-2012, 22:28	#7
longword Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 33	As a Laytown passenger I have a bit more info to add on this one, and I think there may have been two separate train failures. When I got to the station a little before 07:30, the service that normally runs at 07:18 (an 8-carriage 2800 I think) was just pulling away. At that point the PIS was saying there had been a train fault at Balbriggan and delays were to be expected. The 07:30 to Connolly, a 4-carriage 29k, appeared about 10 minutes later and sat at the platform for a bit while half its regulars plus most of the users of the next service (scheduled as 07:43) boarded. Then around 07:50 the driver told us all to disembark, the doors closed, and he headed off southbound never to be seen again. The PIS was saying Dublin Bus was accepting rail tickets. There were no platform announcements at any point in the morning. The 07:43 service to Bray, an 8-carriage 29k, showed up around 08:00 and it was mostly plain sailing from there - there weren't many passengers left on the platforms on the way in, and it ended up less overcrowded than most morning trains. On the way I did notice the northbound Enterprise stopped at Balbriggan as we passed, and a 2800 laid up at the Skerries siding. I think what happened was that delayed 07:18 2800 train also failed (I heard mumbles of a door problem) around Balbriggan. I suspect the 4-carriage 29k that left Laytown empty, plus the redirected Northbound train Rashers mentioned, were used to serve passengers from the earlier failed services from Balbriggan in. The Bray train I ended up on actually terminated at Connolly, but at least the driver was communicative and clear. It was announced at Donabate (its last stop before Connolly) and as the train was approaching Connolly the driver let us know we'd be pulling in at platform 4 and that there was a Greystones DART right behind us that would be arriving at platform 5. It may just be that Irish Rail did a smarter and better job of managing the failures than might first appear. On the flip side it does make you wonder why the 2800s aren't being rushed towards the scrap heap. They seem to be at the bottom of every major Northern Commuter delay.

14-01-2012, 15:34	#8
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	Welcome to the board. The replacement of stock is a knock-on game. Once the next batch of 22000s is in, it can replace the 29000s used on the Sligo line, which can then replace 2800s on commuter services. Probably.