Troubled times ahead on the Belfast line

[plant43]

Looks like they are asking for new trains

Last Updated: 22/01/2008 15:05
Ministers may buy Dublin/Belfast trains


Ministers on both sides of the Border are considering whether they should buy new trains for the Belfast to Dublin railway line.

Stormont MLAs were told Translink and Iarnród Éireann have asked for money to replace existing stock.

The North's Transport Minister Conor Murphy revealed they also want to expand their fleet on the busy cross-Border Enterprise service as part of plans to increase its frequency and reduce journey times.

The governments are pressing to reduce the journey times between both cities from two hours five minutes to one hours 40 minutes.

Mr Murphy confirmed both companies were preparing a business case for the renewed investment to be considered as early as May.

"It has been accepted and proven that where we have made investments in public transport - in railways, in the tracks and the rolling stock- that it has improved the service and has also improved the uptake of the service and passenger numbers have increased," he said.

Mr Murphy said the governments were approached about money for the new fleet at last month's meeting of the North South Ministerial Council (NSMC) Transport Sector in Trim. Co Meath.

Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey and Stormont Environment Minister Arlene Foster held talks with operators about improving the Enterprise service.

"In the longer term interests, on environmental issues - in reducing our carbon footprint - we want to attract more and more passengers onto public transport - onto railway," Mr Murphy told the Assembly. "So I think we will continue to make the case for investment."

The Newry And Armagh MP said the business case for the new trains could be ready by the next NSMC Transport meeting in May.
© 2008 ireland.com

[Mark Gleeson]

This further strenghtens the information posted in the members area of what is truely going on, on the Belfast line. Potentially you could be seeing new trains on the Belfast line within the next 2 years at most. But this article relates to 125mph running

NIR currently tendering for stock and they are specifying for cross border. IE and NIR previously failed to agree to the lease of a fleet of 8 coach 125mph diesel railcars from the UK which where lying idle. NIR can't lease trains and had no cash so the project died.

Not going to do much to solve the current day to day situation which can only get worse with time

[Derek Wheeler]

If the service wants to compete with the M1/A1 and further improvements, then they will have to go high speed. If they anticipate doing that and increasing the frequency, then the infrastructure north of Dundalk and the northern commuter line will have to be addressed.

New rolling stock is only part of the battle. Even if the current Enterprise service was efficient and reliable, it would still struggle to attract higher passenger numbers given the road improvements. The initial investment was short sighted because southern Ireland's economic boom exposed it. Once the Newry bypass is upgraded to DC, the Enterprise is in real trouble. By 2010the entire IC network will be shown up for what it is - out of touch.

[Colm Donoghue]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Once the Newry bypass is upgraded to DC, the Enterprise is in real trouble.

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

[James Shields]

Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus?

It may be one factor, but I think it's some way down most people's priorities. People want to arrive reliably, on time, and in comfort. If you can sort those issues out, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to most people whether the journey takes 90 mins or two hours. If you want the get to Dublin during business hours, the problem is not around Newry, it's inside the M50.

Of course, we're a long way from sorting our those issues at the moment. We need to have trains that don't break down, that arrive when they're supposed to. We need train staff that treat customers with respect. We need to give them things they can't get in their car, like Wi-Fi. These are the things that will bring people back to the train, regardless of how good the motorway is.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by James Shields

Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus?

It may be one factor, but I think it's some way down most people's priorities. People want to arrive reliably, on time, and in comfort. If you can sort those issues out, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to most people whether the journey takes 90 mins or two hours. If you want the get to Dublin during business hours, the problem is not around Newry, it's inside the M50.

Of course, we're a long way from sorting our those issues at the moment. We need to have trains that don't break down, that arrive when they're supposed to. We need train staff that treat customers with respect. We need to give them things they can't get in their car, like Wi-Fi. These are the things that will bring people back to the train, regardless of how good the motorway is.

I agree with you James, but unfortunetly the operator is a long way short of achieving that. Also bare in mind that not all travellers will think along your lines of thought. The railway needs to compete with the road option and it needs to do so very vigorously. European transport history is littered with rail companies striving for higher speeds, more customer comforts and all in a bid to beat the "motorway". Despite a rapid motorway programme in Ireland we appear content to patch up the tracks and offer very outdated customer perks. At a time of what IE call unprecedented investment, why oh why are they looking for a 1960s style railway?

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

Indeed. I saw it last week on the way to Armagh. Once the section north of Newry gets the grade sepeation treatment, its gonna do some business. I know James has made a good point about the train and its alternative benefits, but unless we get in line with other European nations, the Enterprise will die.

I love rail, but I will say to people here that if you love rail then accept that it needs to up its game considerably if its going to keep attracting passengers from the improving road network.

[James Shields]

My point is it's not the road that's attracting people away from the train, it's the shoddy service on the train that's pushing people on to the road. If you need to get to Dublin for a 9am meeting, and you now you've only a 60% chance of making it on the train, then it's a no brainer, you take the car even if you have to leave an hour earlier to do it. It would be nice to have faster journey times, but I'd rather be able to depend on the current ones.

After that, I think service frequency is the next big issue. Sligo now has the same frequency as Belfast, which given the difference in population, makes no sense. An hourly service is a must.

Third I would put the on-board experience. Nobody wants to be squashed on like cattle, though increasing the frequency should help to solve that problem. Other factors such as comfortable seating, good on train information, lighting, toilets, catering, power sockets, quiet areas, and on-board entertainment (such as internet access) all contribute to passenger experience.

After we've got all those sorted out, we can start looking at the journey times, but I don't believe it will attract people back to the train as much as the above issues. Obviously, if IE are relaying track, they should do it to a standard that can take 125mph trains, because that's not a whole lot more expensive than maintaining he status quo. Similarly, if new trains are being bought, they should be capable of 125mph.

But reducing the journey times without fixing the other problems is just an exercise self delusion.

[al2637]

Also remember that the majority of people in Dublin (same goes for Belfast) don't live within a 10min walk of Connolly. So you've then got the extra time and hassle of getting to the station which just makes it unviable for most.

If I live in Blanch, Tallaght, Lucan, Rathfarnham etc etc getting to Connolly or Hueston to take an IC service is more hassle than it's worth.

Until we have a *reliable*, integrated transport solution in the city the IC services won't make any inroads into the motorway.

[dowlingm]

Given that the Republic of Ireland is now directly subventing infrastructure and programmes in NI, it could be that the ROI taxpayer will, directly or indirectly, be paying more than the usual 50pc. That's fine with me, whatever gets the job done rather than wait for the NI Assembly to scrap some coppers together.

[Mickey H]

A post on IRN (a site I tend not to believe) claims the two governments agreed an exemption to the new Northern Ireland regulations so that any IE train can still cross the border if there are two people in the cab. Can anyone confirm or deny this story?

[Rushed2nowhere]

Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus?

On intercity journeys I would take the bus as I find it more reliable and much,much cheaper. The Bus Eireann online system is also brilliant.10% discount, you can pay with laser and no bother to print.

On Sunday 30th December 2007 I took the bus from Belfast to Dublin at 7 in the evening.Two hours and fifteen minutes with one stop in Dublin Airport.

If new trains are ordered for the Dublin Belfast route then they should order more 22000 provided they can go at the required speed. It will save money on maintenance and spare parts.

(They should have done the same for the Dublin Cork route.)

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Mickey H

A post on IRN (a site I tend not to believe) claims the two governments agreed an exemption to the new Northern Ireland regulations so that any IE train can still cross the border if there are two people in the cab. Can anyone confirm or deny this story?

Possible yes but this would make IE the only UK rail operator (yes I mean what I say) to ever achieve this status, every steam locomotive in the UK on the mainline now has a digital black box and TPWS, RPSI are fitting at the moment, and you would think they would be first in the queue to use the exemption

It would take formal action by the NI Home Office, the Irish Government has no say in the matter in any way, there would be a formal application in Irish Rail's name to the office of the appropriate department in Stormont

I've seen a photo of an IE train without TPWS in Northern Ireland with only one person in the cab which clearly disproves this claim

Current procedures which are rigidly followed is any NIR non fitted with CAWS (basically any 80 class, 450 class or C3K numbered above 3006) must have a second driver/guard/inspector in the cab when operating south of Dundalk, note NIR will nearly always send a low numbered CAF set to avoid this need

[MrX]

Surely the most logical thing to do is to buy more of those new Intercity Railcars the "22000" units that Irish Rail have just purchased and brand them up as Enterprise and have them operating on that line.

That'd give 100mph service, which is more than adequate for that line without massive upgrading.

It's a short trip and will only require a very small fleet. It seems insane to go and buy another weird one off set like the Enterprise.

The other alternative, if they want 125mph service, would be a fleet from CAF with powercars that would match the Cork-Dublin sets...

No doubt they'll order something completely stupid though ! E.g. German ICE coaches hauled by a steam locomotive or something....

[James Shields]

Hear, hear. The 6 car 22Ks would be ideal for the Enterprise. I would suggest they don't bother with special livery, as this would make it harder to rotate stock with other router. It also removes the need for dedicated spares. If all 6 car sets are fitted with UK safety equipment it solves a lot of problems.

I reckon 5 6 car sets or 30 coaches would be needed for an hourly service.

Can a 6 car set and a 3 car set mate? Would it be possible to have a 3 car set waiting in Dundalk to join a southbound train to give extra capacity for the busiest leg? I think the platforms in Dundalk, Drogheda and Connolly would all be long enough.

[Mark Gleeson]

Now now remember the members area explains the game

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

Sorry to dig up this old thread but the latest on the Newry Bypass is that the topsoil works revealed some sites of archealogical interest, so the contractor is discussing with the authorities how best to proceed. In the meantime, no work is being done and I think it's been about a month since anything happened.

[James Shields]

They should give the lads working on the M3 a call, they'd tell them how to deal with situations like this (I've heard anecdotal evidence that several finds along the route of the M3 have been bulldozed before anyone had a chance to tell the archaeologists).

[GNR]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/background/7325380.stm

Northern Ireland Railways has revealed that its premier service, the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise, is losing money and needs a £500m overhaul.

It has also emerged that on average an Enterprise train breaks down every eight days.

A standard adult return fare between Belfast and Dublin currently costs £36.00.

Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy has admitted there are problems with the service.

"There is always room for improvement - you can never be complacent and say a service can't be improved," said Mr Murphy.

"And some of the flaws relate to the structure the service operates on, which is the responsibility of ourselves and the two railway companies, to try and decrease the time between the two cities.

"Travel on the train between the two cities is hugely important for both administrations."

[richards]

The report on the BBC was good as it has brought to light the large amount of 'failures' which occur with the rail stock. However it mentions that the diesel engines are 15 years old and the rail stock is 10+ years. This is not the issue. For example the Eurostar rail stock (while electric) is the same age as the IE/NIR Diesel Loco's and the rolling stock is actually newer that the Eurostar stock. I applicate that there are issues with IE Loco's and (CAWS??) operating on NIR rail lines and signaling etc and that there are only 6 loco's available to cover the Enterprise service.

There have been big improvements in Diesel Rail-cars over the last 15 years which are probably more suited to rail operations in Ireland. The new 22K stock used by IE is an example of this.