Scoping study published - insufficient funds for Navan

[Colm Donoghue]

It's funny how IÉ never whinged about building the line from Ennis to Athenry like this.
I'd say once the dual carriageway from Barefield to the M17 is built, coaches like BÉ or citilink will be quicker from Limerick to Galway.

The only road built that is profitable is the section of the M50 from the N3 junction to the N4 Junction.
Why is there this big concern about the capital cost?


Two people who worked for the government who were involved with this profitable road have served prison time having been convicted. One of them is of course completely innocent.
Another person who worked for the government and was involved in shennanigans nearby this profitable road served prison time too. but as Liam Lawlor said "Liam Lawlor never did anything wrong"

When the M3 is built and the M3/M50 junction finished and if the opw let busses and coaches use the phoenix, what will journey time for a coach to
the city centre from Navan be? compared to projected train times?

[Rushed2nowhere]

Quote
"Remember we said to would could 300 million (at 2004 prices), well we are proven right 455 less the rolling stock cost (which is normally separate) gives about 300 million"

Do Irish rail need to buy additional stock?

They have started the tender process for an extra 150 commuter railcars bringing the nunmber to 330 + 250 more DART carraiges. All these should be in operation by at least 2015.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/nat...investment.asp

By the sounds of it the govenment have allocated €250million to this project. If you remove the cost of the rolling stock I.R. are only €50million short.

I think the government should never have spent so much upgrading the N3. Instead of building the motorway they should have upgraded the N3. Now there is not enough money for the railway.

Again the politicians are guilty of short term planning.

[eoin]

Listen, I know in the great scheme of things €10 isn't that much to ask for, but the fact is that committee members (past and present) of RUI are some of the most clued in people in Ireland when it comes to issues like this. There is information and opinion available in this thread not available anywhere else. And I mean anywhere. I think it would be a shame to hide this from the public at large.

There are probably more people reading this discussion than you realise. I for one rarely post on this forum, but I find all of these issues very interesting. Please don't move this thread from public view.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by eoin

Listen, I know in the great scheme of things €10 isn't that much to ask for, but the fact is that committee members (past and present) of RUI are some of the most clued in people in Ireland when it comes to issues like this. There is information and opinion available in this thread not available anywhere else. And I mean anywhere. I think it would be a shame to hide this from the public at large.

There are probably more people reading this discussion than you realise. I for one rarely post on this forum, but I find all of these issues very interesting. Please don't move this thread from public view.

this thread is staying where it is.

[robdrysdale]

This from fxcentre.com

Govt "stalling" on Northside Luas plan
Thursday, 10th January 2008 02.43pm

Fine Gael claims that the government is stalling on plans for a northside Luas in order to benefit the constituency of transport minister Noel Dempsey.

It made the accusation today when it released details, acquired under the Freedom of Information Act, about a row over the proposed route.

In a statement, Fine Gael Senator Paschal Donohue said, "Plans to extend the LUAS into Dublin's Northside have stalled because CIE won't allow LUAS staff on to its land despite a direct request from the previous Minister for Transport, according to Fine Gael Seanad Transport Spokesman Senator Paschal Donohoe, who has received information on the dispute under a Freedom of Information request."

Senator Donohoe said the Fianna Fail Government has failed to resolve the dispute and suggested that Transport Minister Noel Dempsey may be putting his own constituency's interests before Dublin's transport needs.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats utter rubbish RPA staff have the legal powers to enter any lands they need when doing so to carry out surveys and so on from the creation of a works order

This is more of the usual look at me politican

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

It's funny how IÉ never whinged about building the line from Ennis to Athenry like this.
I'd say once the dual carriageway from Barefield to the M17 is built, coaches like BÉ or citilink will be quicker from Limerick to Galway.

The only road built that is profitable is the section of the M50 from the N3 junction to the N4 Junction.
Why is there this big concern about the capital cost?


Two people who worked for the government who were involved with this profitable road have served prison time having been convicted. One of them is of course completely innocent.
Another person who worked for the government and was involved in shennanigans nearby this profitable road served prison time too. but as Liam Lawlor said "Liam Lawlor never did anything wrong"

When the M3 is built and the M3/M50 junction finished and if the opw let busses and coaches use the phoenix, what will journey time for a coach to
the city centre from Navan be? compared to projected train times?

IE did complain about the WRC. They put forward similar arguments against it over the last 5 years. The Strategic rail review said the same. The only thing with Navan, in my opinion, is that the capital cost is an easy way out for government. (The WRC was a lot cheaper and less complicated)

IE don't want any of these new routes because they probably fear that subvention will not be increased to cover growing infrastructural costs. They are also aware of the demands on exchequer funds for new rail projects. I am not against navan. I have been one of its biggest supporters. But there has always been the possibility that it can become far too political and detrimental to whats most important - the interconnector.

A simple example is this. The WRC Ennis-Athenry is going ahead, while 2 existing lines are slowly dieing. (Limerick junct - Rosslare and Ballybrophy - Limerick.) This is because politicians are interferring and making the wrong decisions when they do interfere. Does it make any sense for existing lines in similar areas to the WRC to be treated this way? No it doesn't and its very poor management of infrastructure. The decision making process for the entire nation should have been taken out of the hands of CIE and Government. A dedicated agency free from the baggage of CIE and politics may well have been the preferred vehicle to decide whats what and where.

But back to Navan. Its a lot of money. So what? Well it can be used by the DoF as an excuse. The M3 may well be used as an excuse. Don't mind Dempsey. He'd say mass. There's more evidence against Irish Governments for breaking promises than keeping them.

I would suggest that post M3 and M50 interchange completion, journey times from Navan to Dublin will be decreased considerably. This may dilute public demand for a railway and be used by Government as yet another "excuse".

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

When the M3 is built and the M3/M50 junction finished and if the opw let busses and coaches use the phoenix, what will journey time for a coach to
the city centre from Navan be? compared to projected train times?

I'm not sure. The M3 is set to reduce times by car by twelve minutes or something, and the buses already skip the gridlock in blanch.

The train would still knock the socks off it anyhow

[Mark Gleeson]

Wouldn't be so sure

Bus Aras 6pm back Nov 2005 arrived Navan 6:57pm, fluke possibly but it proves the point that the direct route to Navan is so important to be competitive

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by philip

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"?

They do on an annualised basis in most cases too, which Navan wouldn't according to that report. Navan will be viable on an annualised running cost basis over 30 years.

The issue is build cost of €450m. But we all knew about that price tag going back how long? Years anyway.

The only funding surprise was the impotente section 49 levy scheme which in it's current format will collect next to nothing from developers along the route.

There is a similar cost to the KRP, and according to some there will be a only minor increase on passengers on that that €450m project.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Wouldn't be so sure

Bus Aras 6pm back Nov 2005 arrived Navan 6:57pm, fluke possibly but it proves the point that the direct route to Navan is so important to be competitive

That was good - but traffic can be extremely eratic up here, and getting out of Dublin is generally much much easier then getting to it from Meath

Was that the night of the Navan railway public meeting where P11 backed the project with it's then only estimated €450m (but now confirmed) price-tag?

[Navan Junction]

Right, got a sample figure on a bus journey times from a Navan commuter today, just out of interest.

Got bus this morning at Arboyne at 7:35am, arrived Dublin at 9:25am.

Got bus this evening at 6pm, arrived Navan (Ardboyne) at 7:25pm.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

Was that the night of the Navan railway public meeting where P11 backed the project with it's then only estimated €450m (but now confirmed) price-tag?

Less of the inuendo on the board. RUI have continued to back Navan. I don't recall it changing.If you don't like what I said in my previous posts (despite clarification on the phone) then deal with me in private. What I said, I said as an individual. Im no longer a commitee member of RUI. If you don't like what other RUI members said, then deal with them individually.

For the record, there is more to life than this friggin railway. If questioning the project in terms of viability/deliverability forces you into remarks like that above, then you need to get out more.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Thats utter rubbish RPA staff have the legal powers to enter any lands they need when doing so to carry out surveys and so on from the creation of a works order

This is more of the usual look at me politican

Sorry, but I read the news article and then your reply. How do you know that this didn't happen?

Anyone interested knows that the Broadstone line (and thats whats being referred to) is now a problem. CIE have gone public with plans that are a direct contradiction to what is planned under T21 by the RPA.

I have no doubt that this information is correct.

[Mark Gleeson]

Transport Act 2001 section 36 grants the RPA, CIE or their agents the right to access all lands in the preparation of a works order

Should the owner refuse, a warrant may be issued upon application to the district court.

I'm no solicitor but that to me means if CIE wants to block the RPA they need to go the high court to get an injunction. That would be public knowledge if it happened. Before that of course you would get the usual round of letters back and forward trying to get a solution. The RPA have been on site, that can be confirmed. Mountain molehill thing. I very much doubt its the first time the RPA have had to deal with a awkward landowner.

In that context the media report doesn't make any sense at all, since it implies the RPA dont have access when in fact they do

The fact it is the use of the future use of lands which is in dispute. This is well known, nothing new and indeed a study has been commissioned to resolve the issue in a open manner. The result is fairly well assured to be in the RPA's favour

The hold up on the Luas side is the continuing will they or won't they build the line to join the Red and Green lines. Its to be done by end 2012 which is 5 years from today basically, they don't need to submit the works order mid 2009, its not as if its delaying things

[Thomas J Stamp]

right, this is getting out of hand. stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone. We might as well be discussing a new station on the moon.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

right, this is getting out of hand. stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone. We might as well be discussing a new station on the moon.

A new station on the moon? That sounds cooool!But is it financially or economically viable?

[ThomasJ]

stop bikering, and stop stalking about broadstone

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

many a mistake revels the truth ThomasJ !!!

[ThomasJ]

Thomasjstamp can I be as bold as to ask for the meaning