Scoping study published - insufficient funds for Navan

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

I know but it is relevant. I couldn't give damn whether I take a train from Navan and it gets me to Dublin city centre in 50 minutes or 70 minutes.

I would prefer any service to another decade of waiting, and either path to Dublin is better that the grid-lock rat race through Blanch.

Point is from an economic perspective it does matter because if the long term vision justifies the direct line to Navan (and God knows we have waited long enough for the dithering to end) then that's what needs to be done.

We have passenger figures for Navan for the first time - maybe it's time to work through comparisons with existing services.

The figures for the line are based on northern line comparisons as well, just to add that in

For a start the gridlock through blanch is coming to an end long before any railway opens.

As for figures, Ive never seen any bar the overall yearly totals IE give for the entire network. The only new figures I see are the ones quoted for new builds. The only real comparison that you can make with navan is with the new builds such as the WRC or perhaps more so with Midleton. But realistically Navan is unique. Its a long abandoned route.

Indulge me.

[Navan Junction]

I don't know - I was asking you becaue you have all the answers

Do a guesstimate based on number of services a day then and a rule of thumb guess on the load factors

Not scientific, use the Hueston timetable as a guess, say every train on the clock on a daily basis, throw them all in

Bear in mind I don't have an over-riding agenda with the direct route because the Drogheda line is still there, so I'm not worried how it stands up

Give it a go, g'wan

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

I don't know - I was asking you becaue you have all the answers

Do a guesstimate based on number of services a day then and a rule of thumb guess on the load factors

Not scientific, use the Hueston timetable as a guess, say every train on the clock on a daily basis, throw them all in

Bear in mind I don't have an over-riding agenda with the direct route because the Drogheda line is still there, so I'm not worried how it stands up

Give it a go, g'wan

Ah no. I don't have those type of answers. Mark Gleeson has that kind of thing to hand. Ask him. I only talk the talk of the ordinary man who couldn't give a **** less about stats, figures etc. Except when it suits an argument and I have them to hand.

Jaysus. That was nearly as good as Dempsey.

By the way is boards.ie still down? I fancy a bit of rough!

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by philip

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"? Just take it out of my taxes Bertie-that's what I pay them for.

Just about all of it does. Funny thing is for such a negatie headline in the report, the content isn't all that negative

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by philip

Surely most public transport falls into this category of being "unviable"? Just take it out of my taxes Bertie-that's what I pay them for.

What a 'country' we live in.

I agree Philip. But I don't believe the Government think that way.Unviable WRC got the nod. Unviable Navan may get the nod. Cork Co Co planned for nearly 30 years to get the nod. The Nenagh line is falling to pieces. Waterford - Limerick junct is the same. This Government havent a damn clue what they are doing or how they do it. There's no shape to any of the decisions.

But there's a conflict here. On one hand a new report into CIE is recommending a fresh look at phasing out subsidies. The DOT are to meet CIE companies with a list of questions. On the other hand the Government are commiting to "unviable" projects. Longterm somebody has to pick up the infrastructure cost of these projects. Fine if government accept them, but dodgy if they want out of the subvention game.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Jaysus. That was nearly as good as Dempsey.

Aye, but he's evolving and picking up new lingo though from hanging around with IÉ. Rail lobby groups are becoming 'Rail enthusiasts' under the new lingo, guess where he got that one

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

but dodgy if they want out of the subvention game.

Phew, thanks be to God that Navan isn't in the annual subvention or economically unviable catagory

Mind you all those passengers would be really viable on the Drogheda line

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

Aye, but he's evolving and picking up new lingo though from hanging around with IÉ. Rail lobby groups are becoming 'Rail enthusiasts' under the new lingo, guess where he got that one

A sad state man, a sad state alright. But hey I tried to change that you know. Its hard when enthuasiasts just keep peddling the same desperate material, even on this forum. One of the reasons I got out. I couldn't care less about enthuasiasts/train spotters etc. Now Im free to say what I like in a language that ordinary punters can understand. The shackles are off.

Keeping somewhat on topic, just look at IRNs sad contribution to the Navan debate. A headbanger who thinks routing the line through every town in meath would improve the projects "viability". Sorry, but I can't fathom that kind of ****e.

Ive exhausted my opinion on Navan. It won't be built. IE don't want it. The Government don't really want it. It all boils down to very simple reasons. Politicians think they are transport experts because they are politicians. IE know that the Government will select certain projects through ignorance and political strategy. God love them, but they are only trying to protect what is really needed. But Navan rail will disappear up the arse of the M3. A pity, but a reality.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

Phew, thanks be to God that Navan isn't in the annual subvention or economically unviable catagory

Mind you all those passengers would be really viable on the Drogheda line

You should get some sleep.

[Navan Junction]

I wouldn't be too worries about name calling, it's irrelevant.

And you may be right about the M3.

But either way the process needs to be exhausted

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

I wouldn't be too worries about name calling, it's irrelevant.

And you may be right about the M3.

But either way the process needs to be exhausted

Not name calling. Its my opinion based on extensive research and experience. He's a headbanger.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Not name calling. Its my opinion based on extensive research and experience. He's a headbanger.

I was talking about Dempsey

[Derek Wheeler]

Ok.

But he's a headbanger aswell.

[Mark Gleeson]

This is going to be moved to the members area shortly. This forum is primarily for passenger issues. The pros, cons and political ideology behind the possible reopening of a line is not a passenger issue

Would all posters please refrain from the use of derogatory terms with respect of public figures. Last thing we need is trouble from some angry individual.

[Navan Junction]

Ok, here are some really rough calculations.

Say on average, each Dublin-Cork train carries 350 passengers each.

And without checking say there are 15 departures per day from Hueston.

That would mean that approximately the same number of passengers use the CDE as would use Navan Dublin.

Maybe somebody else wants to come up with other comparisons

[ACustomer]

Two things strike me about this discussion.
1. If the Navan line gets built, it will be because the Minister for Transport just happens by good fortune to come from the Meath area? So much for a rational basis for transport decisions.
2. Is there any consistency between the methodologies used to assess road projects such as the M3 and rail projects such as Clonsilla-Navan? There should be, as they compete for capital resources, and ultimately for customers. Also is there any consistency in banging on about a new line being financially or economically viable while continuing to support existing lines which probably do no pass either test?

The whole mess reflects badly on the competence of both the politicians and especially the civil servants in the dysfunctional Dept of Transport.

[Mark Hennessy]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

This is going to be moved to the members area shortly. This forum is primarily for passenger issues. The pros, cons and political ideology behind the possible reopening of a line is not a passenger issue

Mark can you leave the core of the issue available to the wider public.
If anyone in Navan except NJ cares about the railway they may want to read about it.

[Mark Gleeson]

The media reports and so will remain public

This is principally a forum for passenger issues

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

This is going to be moved to the members area shortly. This forum is primarily for passenger issues. The pros, cons and political ideology behind the possible reopening of a line is not a passenger issue

Would all posters please refrain from the use of derogatory terms with respect of public figures. Last thing we need is trouble from some angry individual.

Is this kind of thing a passenger issue.......

When I went to the show in Sligo back whenever it was, I saw that the suspension was a combination of old school springs and some posh hydraulics or air suspension setup on top of that.

Experience has shown me that when it comes to suspensions on trains destined for Sligo and perhaps anywhere in Ireland, that the simpler and more old school the suspension, the better. The 2800s and Mk2ds (both good) vs the 29ks (crap) prove that you can get a better ride by not complicating things.

The conclusions I took from that were that these trains ride would be generally solid as the whole bodyshell rested on springs, but that the hydraulic thingy on top of it would have to be watched carefully.

This thread has wide appeal and deserves to be seen by all forum members and visitors. At least ordinary people can understand it.

As for derogatory terms about public figures, my comment is totally and utterly legal and above aboard.

[Navan Junction]

I'd agree with leaving it.

The point of the matter is that the project and every other project in Transport 21 should be rigourously examined.

The only concern I'd have is that rigourous examination was misinterpreted as resistance, but that is no reason not to debate it.

Just to adress a couple of points - nobody has ever seen the Meath project ever shown any favouritism at a political level from the county no matter whether the politician in question was Mary Wallace, John Bruton or Noel Dempsey.

I think the report is much stronger than the doomsayer headline intro thrown out there by IÉ at the presentation.

I would have thought once the decision was taken to spend €450m on a line at today's prices was made two years ago, the only real question after that was whether it would be a success in terms of passengers and covering it's costs.

The answer in the report was a firm yes to both.

Just to mention that an error was made in respect of the Section 49 levies in the report - they limited their radius to 1km around the stations.

Clearly the station in Dunshaughlin will be about that from the centre of town, and Navan is already developed within the 1km radius in Navan town.

Effectively the consultants inexplicably ignored any real potential for a comprehensive levy scheme.

There is more than a possability that MCC constrained the levy scheme which provoked IÉ into a negative headline intro. There is more to this than meets the eye, but what it is not clear.

The report did not come to a negative conclusion - even Midleton and Dunboyne are not expected to repay their build costs beyond the levy contribution level