A N Other rant - Integration and the Government - Does It Work?

Colm Donoghue · 08-09-2006, 17:09

AAARGH

not rail related but shows the joined up thinking of the Dept of transport.

This time last year the M4 extension was due to open. As it was a pike road I decided to sign up to eazypass and get an eazypass so's I wouldn't be fumbling getting exact change for two pikes on my way to Galway.

Early last Winter the M4 opened and "Tada!" they don't take eazypass, they have their own system, Eirtag.
Eirtag doesn't work on the M50 or the eastlink.

Eazypass told me it would work in early summer 2006 on the M4. still doesn't.

The NRA told me that CRG who own the M1, would have an M1 tag "interoperable at all PPP pikes during the summer of 2006"

(this is 3 seperate systems so far)

I did a bit of digging and found out the M8 fermoy pike will use the same tag( Ha Ha only Joking) The M8 owners directroute, will use their own tag.

I applied this week to CRG for a tag interoperable with all PPP tolls. I got an application form it states that "(Please Note; Mini-Tag cannot currently be used in either West-Link or East-Link toll plazas)"

Still reading? Good.

The state of play now is
6 pikes exist

east link
west link
M1
M4
M8
DPT

4 e-toll tags exist
Eazypass
Eirtag
Mini-Tag ( from CRG on the M1)
directroute tag has no name yet

only Eazypass will work on the pikes in Dublin
Eazypass also works on the pike on the M1
The M1 tag won't work on the west link.
Eirtag won't work on the west link.

ALL these tags/electronic tolling were introduced during the NDP/FF-PD govt.
I couldn't believe the govt didn't ensure one tag fits all. I actually still can't and believe its a bad joke.

In my correspondance with the nra, the person there said

Quote:

The NRA is in discussion with NTR regarding the East-Link and West-Link plazas with the objective of those older non-PPP plazas also coming into the interoperability arrangements and anticipates this will occur ensuring a seamless national service to electronic tag users. However, unlike the current PPP schemes, NTR has no contractual obligation to be interoperable with other toll schemes. NTR are however currently upgrading their toll systems with the objective of facilitating interoperability.

In summary, until such time as NTR have satisfied both their technical and commercial requirements in relation to interoperability, two separate tags will be required for users who wish to use ETC at both the NTR and all other plazas, both existing and planned. NTR are currently putting in place the necessary requirements to be interoperable which on completion will allow a single ETC tag to be used across all toll plazas.

yet at the same time the govt signed a contract extension to allow ntr build a new bridge as part of the NDP i.e. in recent non-corrupt-as-feic times, and forgot to enforce this interoperable term

In light of all the above, ( apart from it being Friday and pub day) this may shed some light on why I can't get on a bus outside where I work, and buy a single ticket to get me to any destination served in the city by public transport i.e intgrated ticketing.

Thank you for reading.
you must be bored now.
Colm

PaulM · 08-09-2006, 18:03

We were talking about this in work the other day. The board rules prevent saying what I would like to. Imagine the most insulting things you can and then go much worse.

Derek Wheeler · 08-09-2006, 23:38

Colm

My heart bleeds for you and I mean that in a genuine way. This matter has been burning me up inside for quite some time. As a "jobbing driver" I discovered this scenario a while back. You've covered the technical bits very well, so I won't add to it. However, I will say that you are also very correct in drawing an analogy to the current "muppetry" that is integrated ticketing on public transport. Combined with the road issue, it highlights a very severe lack of coordination at Government level. None of us here are surprised at that. But its a real "signal" of how inept the civil service are in this country in relation to transport matters.

Speaking of motorways, we are still planning and building a new series of Interurban routes and yet we are still waiting on progress in the form of easily and accessible "service" points.

When "anti-road" people compare the motorway programme to a lack of investment in rail, I still laugh out loud at their inherent ignorance of how road and rail work in tandem. You have highlighted the lack of integration of electronic tolling. Ive mentioned the absense of proper services along the stretches of motorway. What does this prove? Well it proves, that despite massive investment in roads and "smaller" investment in rail, our "planners" and our "Government" haven't got a clue how to do any of it (rail and road) correctly. Travelling on our new super highways, is still as problematic (for different reasons) as travelling on our rail network.

Keep it going Colm. I share your pain on this issue, because I believe that this country should have both a modern and user friendly road system and a modern and user friendly rail system. That is the well established European model, that promotes healthy competition between modes and the choice of modes.

Without competing road transport, railways would never have developed high speed trains. In Ireland we can't get either mode working right. Its perhaps an "uniqueness" that will lead us down an undiscovered, but easily predicatble path.

alek smart · 09-09-2006, 09:44

Quote: "NTR has no contractual obligation to be interoperable with other toll schemes. "

There you are....Problem posed and answered in one single post.

If there HAD been a simple one-line "Contractual Obligation" insisting on a single electronic cashless mode then NTR would have included it..FULL STOP.

This situation is EXACTLY parallell to the Integrated Ticketing mallarkey coming to us courtesy of Irl Gov.ie.

The over-riding ethos appears to be:
"If NO problem exists prior to a new infrastructural start-up,then Government Policy is to find,invent or manufacture a problem which will then necessitate a large scale "Rectification Process" involving Friends of,Relations of,or mere accquaintances of Government Personages."

The only qualifer is that the Friends,Relations or Accquaintances MUST own or have a beneficial interest in companies or entities which will derive benefit from addressing the "Problems" which,remember,exist ONLY due to lack of oversight and planning in the first instance.

The scale of benefit available to the Friends,Relations and Accquaintances will vary from comfortable to absolutely shaggin unbelievable depending on the scale of relationship with the relevant Minister (NB: In the absence of a Minister a nominated Departmental Secretary can assume the Ministers role in allocating such "Problem Solving" duties as may be required) to
1: Initially Make the problem worse
2: Seek a revised contractual provision to address the solving of the worsened/worsening problem.
3: To recruit extra family/friends/accquaintances as may be found necessary to meet the requirements of (a) 1 + 2 above.
4: To ensure that any and all important public notices relating to (b) 1,2 and 3 above are expeditiously promulgated thru an t-Iris Oifiguil having regard to the requirement to use the 1st Official Language and to be fully aware of the importance of such notices appearing on the Friday of a Bank-Holiday weekend .

Now,lets see how much will my ESB bill be increasing from January......
Anybody know any GOOD revolutionaries....?

Colm Donoghue · 11-09-2006, 08:33

Three other points.

The way the system is now to be setup, It will be impossible to use 2 tags coz
Eazypass will charge you on the M1 and each of the non eazypass tags will also charge you on the M1 also.

How many of the govt signatories to the NTR contract have been charged with criminal offences?

Alek, If youre a bit upset with the esb price hike now, take some time to download the esb's annual reports for the last few years. Pay particular attention to the percentage price increase and the profit increase. I'd hope the direct correlation is a fluke......

CSL · 11-09-2006, 17:59

Às with everything else, follow the money.

What should have been done was to set up a central tolling exchange which had responsibility for interconnection.

Note whoever gets this particular concession gets to roll in dosh and issue tags.

Now : all the tolling companies want this , but more than that they don't want anyone else to get it. [ the percentage of revenue [ imagine, % of all vehicles crossing all tollbridges - Ka-Ching !! ]

Therefore without strong central asskicking nothing will happen.

You cannot blame NTR/Eurolink/Whoever, they are acting in their own best interests as commercial organisations.

Oisin88 · 26-01-2007, 18:58

Does anyone know if there is a good way of predicting which DART from the southside to take to meet a LUAS from Tara or Connolly?

I occasionally take a late evening DART from Seapoint and no matter if I get out at Tara and run over to Abbey St. or if I get off the train at Connolly there seems to be 17-19 minutes to the next red line LUAS.

Red line Luas runs every 20 minutes at that time: is this completely random or is it based on a secret timetable that the luas trolls have?

Oisin88 · 29-01-2007, 23:26

I can't believe it. turned up again today on DART from Seapoint and ......
17 minutes.

Thomas J Stamp · 30-01-2007, 14:17

The LUAS timetable is a mystery to me. I reported once before that the times at trams arrived at stops sometimes bore no relation to the information in the information scroll, eg the PIS at your stop will tell you the next LUAS is in 3 mins as it rolls into the stop.

This tells us that there is apparently a pre-programmed timetable built into the PIS. There dosnt appear to be a LUAS version of a Bus Drivers duty board which tells you when you are supposed to be somethere or if there is it must be eletronic. Maybe the drivers get a call from controll to leave early (when there are big gaps in the schedule) and then the PIS is adjusted accordingly.

Anyway, to have 20 min gaps is not acceptable for the LUAS, even if it was running 24 hours. Similarly for the DART.

Oisin88 · 30-01-2007, 21:41

Usually for me the Luas comes when it says so on the board. I am actually much happier with the luas then I have ever been with buses. I have never seen a 15/A/B go at the times written on the bus stop.

Dave · 30-01-2007, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

There dosnt appear to be a LUAS version of a Bus Drivers duty board which tells you when you are supposed to be somethere

There is, most drivers leave it lying around the cab somewhere, some of them display it on front of them as they drive. It tells the exact times they should be at specific locations. I sometimes get on at the front to check how many minutes I'll be late for work!

Oisin88 · 12-02-2007, 23:18

I managed today to get an integrated service!!
I took the 22:10 DART from seapoint (actually left 22:09 by their clock)
Got off at Tara, crossed 3 roads against the traffic light. On the corner of Marlboro street I saw the luas passing so sprinted.
a few buds were keeping the door open so I hopped on!

I noticed that the next Luas was in 10 minutes so the 20 minutes gap is after that. I also spotted the luas drivers duty sheet on the floor of the rear cab....

Colm Donoghue · 11-06-2007, 21:52

Last week it came to my notice in a shameless plug on boards.ie that etrip.ie now have an electronic tag that works at all the turnpikes in Ireland. this means you don't have to know how much the various pikes cost if you travel around the country, and thus root around for change in yer back pocket while trying to steer for the shortest queue with the other at 120kmh.

on tho ther hand you would have to pay a euro a month more then the cost of the tolls to drive on roads that cost less to build than the tax take of motorists and the users of actual mechanically propelled vehicles.

I've used mine on the westlink only so far, which til now was the stumbling block for any countrywide tag.

ymmv

CSL · 12-06-2007, 08:33

Eazypass are now integrated as well.

Colm Donoghue · 12-06-2007, 10:17

since when?

didn't work on the M4 on 25th or 27th of May and wasn't on eazypass website when I cancelled mine.

Colm Moore · 14-06-2007, 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by colmd

Last week it came to my notice in a shameless plug on boards.ie that etrip.ie now have an electronic tag that works at all the turnpikes in Ireland.

Pray tell.

Colm Donoghue · 14-06-2007, 10:08

I had a look for the thread, can't find it.

twas on either commuting or motors and was locked when the two users promoting it were found to have the same ip address and twas their first posts.

I decided to get one, as I only signed up for eazy pass just before the M4 toll road opened assuming it'd work there.

I've no affiliation with etrip or any ppp comapny. I'm just saying there appears to be a solution to an issue I started before.

Redsoxfan · 14-06-2007, 22:05

Got an e-mail from NTR today to say that EazyPass will work on M4, Port Tunnel, M8 etc. from June 15.

Colm Moore · 15-06-2007, 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by colmd

twas on either commuting or motors and was locked when the two users promoting it were found to have the same ip address and twas their first posts.

It / they would have been nuked then.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/banlist.php

Colm Donoghue · 15-06-2007, 12:26

yeah, someone in work just told me today all companies tags have to be interoperable from today.

National Development Plan 2000 - 2006 under budget and on time....

26-01-2007, 18:58	#7
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	Integration Does anyone know if there is a good way of predicting which DART from the southside to take to meet a LUAS from Tara or Connolly? I occasionally take a late evening DART from Seapoint and no matter if I get out at Tara and run over to Abbey St. or if I get off the train at Connolly there seems to be 17-19 minutes to the next red line LUAS. Red line Luas runs every 20 minutes at that time: is this completely random or is it based on a secret timetable that the luas trolls have?

30-01-2007, 14:17	#9
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	The LUAS timetable is a mystery to me. I reported once before that the times at trams arrived at stops sometimes bore no relation to the information in the information scroll, eg the PIS at your stop will tell you the next LUAS is in 3 mins as it rolls into the stop. This tells us that there is apparently a pre-programmed timetable built into the PIS. There dosnt appear to be a LUAS version of a Bus Drivers duty board which tells you when you are supposed to be somethere or if there is it must be eletronic. Maybe the drivers get a call from controll to leave early (when there are big gaps in the schedule) and then the PIS is adjusted accordingly. Anyway, to have 20 min gaps is not acceptable for the LUAS, even if it was running 24 hours. Similarly for the DART. __________________ We are the passengers

12-02-2007, 23:18	#12
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	Success!!! I managed today to get an integrated service!! I took the 22:10 DART from seapoint (actually left 22:09 by their clock) Got off at Tara, crossed 3 roads against the traffic light. On the corner of Marlboro street I saw the luas passing so sprinted. a few buds were keeping the door open so I hopped on! I noticed that the next Luas was in 10 minutes so the 20 minutes gap is after that. I also spotted the luas drivers duty sheet on the floor of the rear cab....

11-06-2007, 21:52	#13
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	while this may look like a plug, 'tisn't Last week it came to my notice in a shameless plug on boards.ie that etrip.ie now have an electronic tag that works at all the turnpikes in Ireland. this means you don't have to know how much the various pikes cost if you travel around the country, and thus root around for change in yer back pocket while trying to steer for the shortest queue with the other at 120kmh. on tho ther hand you would have to pay a euro a month more then the cost of the tolls to drive on roads that cost less to build than the tax take of motorists and the users of actual mechanically propelled vehicles. I've used mine on the westlink only so far, which til now was the stumbling block for any countrywide tag. ymmv

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08-09-2006, 18:03	#2
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	We were talking about this in work the other day. The board rules prevent saying what I would like to. Imagine the most insulting things you can and then go much worse.

08-09-2006, 23:38	#3
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Colm My heart bleeds for you and I mean that in a genuine way. This matter has been burning me up inside for quite some time. As a "jobbing driver" I discovered this scenario a while back. You've covered the technical bits very well, so I won't add to it. However, I will say that you are also very correct in drawing an analogy to the current "muppetry" that is integrated ticketing on public transport. Combined with the road issue, it highlights a very severe lack of coordination at Government level. None of us here are surprised at that. But its a real "signal" of how inept the civil service are in this country in relation to transport matters. Speaking of motorways, we are still planning and building a new series of Interurban routes and yet we are still waiting on progress in the form of easily and accessible "service" points. When "anti-road" people compare the motorway programme to a lack of investment in rail, I still laugh out loud at their inherent ignorance of how road and rail work in tandem. You have highlighted the lack of integration of electronic tolling. Ive mentioned the absense of proper services along the stretches of motorway. What does this prove? Well it proves, that despite massive investment in roads and "smaller" investment in rail, our "planners" and our "Government" haven't got a clue how to do any of it (rail and road) correctly. Travelling on our new super highways, is still as problematic (for different reasons) as travelling on our rail network. Keep it going Colm. I share your pain on this issue, because I believe that this country should have both a modern and user friendly road system and a modern and user friendly rail system. That is the well established European model, that promotes healthy competition between modes and the choice of modes. Without competing road transport, railways would never have developed high speed trains. In Ireland we can't get either mode working right. Its perhaps an "uniqueness" that will lead us down an undiscovered, but easily predicatble path.

09-09-2006, 09:44	#4
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Quote: "NTR has no contractual obligation to be interoperable with other toll schemes. " There you are....Problem posed and answered in one single post. If there HAD been a simple one-line "Contractual Obligation" insisting on a single electronic cashless mode then NTR would have included it..FULL STOP. This situation is EXACTLY parallell to the Integrated Ticketing mallarkey coming to us courtesy of Irl Gov.ie. The over-riding ethos appears to be: "If NO problem exists prior to a new infrastructural start-up,then Government Policy is to find,invent or manufacture a problem which will then necessitate a large scale "Rectification Process" involving Friends of,Relations of,or mere accquaintances of Government Personages." The only qualifer is that the Friends,Relations or Accquaintances MUST own or have a beneficial interest in companies or entities which will derive benefit from addressing the "Problems" which,remember,exist ONLY due to lack of oversight and planning in the first instance. The scale of benefit available to the Friends,Relations and Accquaintances will vary from comfortable to absolutely shaggin unbelievable depending on the scale of relationship with the relevant Minister (NB: In the absence of a Minister a nominated Departmental Secretary can assume the Ministers role in allocating such "Problem Solving" duties as may be required) to 1: Initially Make the problem worse 2: Seek a revised contractual provision to address the solving of the worsened/worsening problem. 3: To recruit extra family/friends/accquaintances as may be found necessary to meet the requirements of (a) 1 + 2 above. 4: To ensure that any and all important public notices relating to (b) 1,2 and 3 above are expeditiously promulgated thru an t-Iris Oifiguil having regard to the requirement to use the 1st Official Language and to be fully aware of the importance of such notices appearing on the Friday of a Bank-Holiday weekend . Now,lets see how much will my ESB bill be increasing from January...... Anybody know any GOOD revolutionaries....?

11-09-2006, 08:33	#5
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	Three other points. The way the system is now to be setup, It will be impossible to use 2 tags coz Eazypass will charge you on the M1 and each of the non eazypass tags will also charge you on the M1 also. How many of the govt signatories to the NTR contract have been charged with criminal offences? Alek, If youre a bit upset with the esb price hike now, take some time to download the esb's annual reports for the last few years. Pay particular attention to the percentage price increase and the profit increase. I'd hope the direct correlation is a fluke......

11-09-2006, 17:59	#6
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	Às with everything else, follow the money. What should have been done was to set up a central tolling exchange which had responsibility for interconnection. Note whoever gets this particular concession gets to roll in dosh and issue tags. Now : all the tolling companies want this , but more than that they don't want anyone else to get it. [ the percentage of revenue [ imagine, % of all vehicles crossing all tollbridges - Ka-Ching !! ] Therefore without strong central asskicking nothing will happen. You cannot blame NTR/Eurolink/Whoever, they are acting in their own best interests as commercial organisations.

29-01-2007, 23:26	#8
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	I can't believe it. turned up again today on DART from Seapoint and ...... 17 minutes.

30-01-2007, 21:41	#10
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	Usually for me the Luas comes when it says so on the board. I am actually much happier with the luas then I have ever been with buses. I have never seen a 15/A/B go at the times written on the bus stop.

12-06-2007, 08:33	#14
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	Eazypass are now integrated as well.

12-06-2007, 10:17	#15
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	since when? didn't work on the M4 on 25th or 27th of May and wasn't on eazypass website when I cancelled mine.

14-06-2007, 10:08	#17
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	I had a look for the thread, can't find it. twas on either commuting or motors and was locked when the two users promoting it were found to have the same ip address and twas their first posts. I decided to get one, as I only signed up for eazy pass just before the M4 toll road opened assuming it'd work there. I've no affiliation with etrip or any ppp comapny. I'm just saying there appears to be a solution to an issue I started before.

14-06-2007, 22:05	#18
Redsoxfan New to the board Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 22	Got an e-mail from NTR today to say that EazyPass will work on M4, Port Tunnel, M8 etc. from June 15.

15-06-2007, 12:26	#20
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	yeah, someone in work just told me today all companies tags have to be interoperable from today. National Development Plan 2000 - 2006 under budget and on time....