[article] State’s lack of respect for services affects us all

[Mark Gleeson]

Another wonderfully written piece tell it as it is out there on the train

State’s lack of respect for services affects us all
November 28th, 2007 , Topics: Articles, Irish Independent, The Generation Game

It is funny how odd bits of relatively useless information that you learned in school sneak up on you. Somewhere in the back of our brains is a skip for stuff we crammed in at some stage. Every now and then some of it re-emerges. For example, last Friday night, Archimedes’ principle elbowed its way through the crowd to take an unwanted cameo role in my consciousness.

The image of Archimedes sitting in his bath trying to figure out how much water he displaced over the side every time he took the plunge is an affecting one. When he had finally understood that the weight of an object could be worked out by weighing the amount of water displaced from the bath he reportedly ran through the street of ancient Syracuse screaming “eureka” which means “I have found it”. Unfortunately, last Friday night’s Archimedes intrusion was not half as uplifting.

Looking down at the blocked, stinking toilet bowl on the overcrowded 7pm Iarnrod Eireann service from Dublin to Sligo, Archimedes’ principle suggests that it is only a matter of time before the entire fetid contents of the bowl spills over the lip, gushing in determined piss eddies all over the passengers who are sitting on their bags in the freezing corridor.

To get an impression of how poor some of our public services are, take the last train to Sligo on a Friday night. The loo is a place to start. Ten minutes into the journey, the bowl is clogged. Fag butts floated in the lilting urine and tobacco-coloured viscous slime. The door is jammed, so, quite apart from a lack of privacy, the trickling tributaries of commuters’ piss flow unimpeded into the carriage, soaking the rucksacks and coats of the people who sit on the floor. They only realise what’s happening when they felt unexpectedly damp. One sudden lurch or wobbly track and the piss levies would break. No one seems to care. There is no staff anywhere.

In America they refer to this wilful neglect of public property as “the broken windows theory”. If the State allows an area, an estate or a train to become so run down, this lack of respect for the property signalled by the owners seeps into the minds of the users. If the owners tolerate the deterioration of the service then the service will deteriorate further because the owners set the tone. If the owners have no pride in the conditions on the train, it sets the tone for everyone.

It’s difficult to say whether it’s the smell of urine or Kentucky Fried chicken or both which makes you retch. The overwhelming urge to vomit is unmistakable. Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey and the so-called, train-friendly Green ministers should get the last train to Sligo (leaving Dublin at 19.05) next Friday night. It might give them an idea of just how appalling our train service is. (In fairness to Irish Rail, the Dublin/Cork service has been upgraded substantially in recent years, but the point is why bother upgrading one line if you are going to treat your other customers with such contempt?)

We stand, as the tiny four-carriage “commuter” train (the average Dart train is considerably bigger), trundled through Maynooth, Kilcock, Enfield disgorging the victims of our property boom who have been forced — by the “land cabal” that runs this country — to buy ridiculously overpriced shoe-boxes miles away from work. These young workers are now picking up the tab for the faltering property market and will suffer negative equity for years to come. And as if that betrayal of a generation wasn’t bad enough, they are being given a large two fingers by the State every time they part with their cash to avail of the Sligo cattle train.

We finally get a seat an hour and 10 minutes into the journey after miles of jerry-built estates, replete with outside decking, trampolines and for some inexplicable reason — given the lashing rain outside — top-of-the-range barbecues! Past Longford and the train enters uncharted territory. The reason for saying this is that even the Irish Rail management advertise that the train is unsuited for the journey. It was never meant to go further than Longford, let alone two hours further. If you look up at the proud “network” map — Irish Rail’s equivalent of the bragging wall — you see the farthest extremity that this train is supposed to travel is Longford.

Yet, as we crossed the Shannon, this glorified Dart was bound for the north-west and Sligo when, even by the management’s own admission, the train isn’t up to it.

By now the smell from the loo is overwhelming, adding to the fragrance of dead sheep which steams off the wet coats and bags. It’s hardly a surprise that latest CSO figures reveal a 22pc increase in the number of people driving to work since 2002. Wouldn’t you?

Interestingly, as if this trend, and the Friday night ordeal, wasn’t capable of putting you off public transport on its own, the ads in the carriage suggest that Irish Rail’s management doesn’t believe in a future for trains either.

The most prominent ad is for a Bank of Ireland car loan, urging us to “get our skates on” and take out a car loan at “only 6.9pc APR for loans over €20,000″. This ad is complemented by the AXA insurance ad informing the long suffering train user about the joys of cheap, fully-comprehensive car insurance.

At 11 minutes past nine, over two hours after departure, Paul from the North of England finally arrives with the trolley. He is a member of Ireland largest ethnic minority, the English. Many of these “English” are members of the Irish Diaspora. They are the children of the 500,000 people who left this country in the 1950s and 1960s. These people are the demographic echo of Ireland when it was a failed economic entity. As we trundle into the West heading for Dromod, Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle and Ballymote, it’s worth remembering how many people left these places in the bad old days.

Pulling into Sligo, the pretty young girl two seats in front is putting on mascara without smudging which, as the train lurches on ancient tracks, is quite an achievement.

She’s no more than 20, stretching her face in the tiny pink mirror. She pouts, flicks her hair and bounds off the train.

She is the next generation. It is her Ireland that we are supposed to be building. The three and a half hour ordeal on the Dublin/Sligo “Intercity”, suggests that we aren’t doing a great job.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2007/1...affects-us-all

[StephenM]

as the train lurches on ancient tracks

I thought the Sligo line was CWR with Concrete Sleepers?

[Thomas Ralph]

That was in Thursday or Friday's Indo as well

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by StephenM

I thought the Sligo line was CWR with Concrete Sleepers?

It makes great copy. Let it go. Overall the service is ****e and has been for years on the sligo line. Ive witnessed plenty of overflowing jacks on the older trains. And whether the 29000 lovers like it or not, as a regular user on the Kildare line the jacks are stuffed more often than they are flushable. I remember one example a few years back when a train failed to show up in Sallins. No announcements and my mother was left stranded. The reason then turned out to be a driver refusing to take a train out with a broken toilet. I guess they don't refuse anymore. So its a stuffed jacks or no train.

Regardless of vandalism, misuse etc. IE have a diabolical record in terms of basic maintenence. There continues to exist, an attitude of "who cares". This starts at the top (management) and works its way down. Despite investment, this attitude prevails. Money will not solve a problem like that.

[Mark Gleeson]

I took the time to visit the depot and staff in Drogheda recently and this came up.

There is nothing wrong with the design or maintenance of the toilets on the 29000. The engineering staff in Drogheda are very insistent that the toilets work and take offense to any reference that the kit is sub standard. The whole operation was very professional and runs to a very defined schedule and the reliability of trains in Dublin has massively improved since they got going in Drogheda

There are three reasons they don't work

1. Some genius wedges a beer can or other foreign object in the toilet bowl, very frequent apparently

2. The door to the toilet (on the wheelchair accessible ones) comes of the rails, again there is a hint of physical assault on the door

3. The tank fills up, the door locks itself out in that situation. However the 29k design has its tank level display out side so a full tank is easily spotted

1 and 2 are impossible to legislate for its a social issue with the lack of respect in society for everything in general by a growing minority, 3 is a fact of life when a suburban train runs a 3 hour plus service, can blame IE for that but you get the feeling if you got rid of the gangs of beer swilling youths it wouldn't be such a issue

[KSW]

On this topic, A while back on the 17:25 Gorey service when the train left Rathdrum these two guys went into the toilet and never came out until near Arklow. After they came out the smell of smoke, I went to use the toilet and I seen an empty packet of cigrattes just shoved down the toilet when there is a bin just to the right with a plastic bag suggesting BIN. If these guys had flushed the toilet it would have caused some real promblems. I have always liked the 29000 Commuter trains they are really nice. Espically the design of the seats and surroundings, Well-done on that IE

[StephenM]

Originally Posted by KeithStephen

two guys went into the toilet and never came out until near Arklow. After they came out the smell of smoke

Here's a nice way to fix that problem. Install a fire alarm and sprinkler system in the toilet, if smoke is detected it sets off the sprinkler. It would solve the issue pretty quickly.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I took the time to visit the depot and staff in Drogheda recently and this came up.

There is nothing wrong with the design or maintenance of the toilets on the 29000. The engineering staff in Drogheda are very insistent that the toilets work and take offense to any reference that the kit is sub standard. The whole operation was very professional and runs to a very defined schedule and the reliability of trains in Dublin has massively improved since they got going in Drogheda

There are three reasons they don't work

1. Some genius wedges a beer can or other foreign object in the toilet bowl, very frequent apparently

2. The door to the toilet (on the wheelchair accessible ones) comes of the rails, again there is a hint of physical assault on the door

3. The tank fills up, the door locks itself out in that situation. However the 29k design has its tank level display out side so a full tank is easily spotted

1 and 2 are impossible to legislate for its a social issue with the lack of respect in society for everything in general by a growing minority, 3 is a fact of life when a suburban train runs a 3 hour plus service, can't blame IE for that but you get the feeling if you got rid of the gangs of beer swilling youths it wouldn't be such a issue

While all of that may be true, it is not in anyway, shape or form, an excuse, reason or justification for a passenger to experience poor toilets. Making excuses based on visits to a depot and citing things like "staff take offence" is more in line with a fanticists web site rather that a consumers web site.

The responsibility of the train operator is to provide a service that is fit to meet a passengers needs/expectations. Once excuses are made then the same oul **** (sorry for pun) goes on.

Have to admit Mark I expected better from you. But Im not surprised. It didn't take long.

[Mark Gleeson]

Fact is we took the time to find out why, instead of the usual grumble grumble uninformed ranting we now know what is going on. It appears this is a serious on going issue which is driving the maintenance people round the bend. Actual failures of the toilet for other reasons are unheard off.

The number one problem is sad individuals who get there kicks from wedging all kinds of objects into the toilet and watch the ensuing chaos.

The cause of these issues is nothing short of vandalism but since you can't have CCTV in the toilet its all but impossible to catch them

Everyone here is not only a passenger put also paying tax to the Irish state in some form and has a right to know why the service is crap, nothing wrong with the train but the tax payer is paying a small fortune in repair costs thanks to a few inconsiderate toe rags

We are still waiting on the program for government commitment to a transport police force to bear fruit

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

if you got rid of the gangs of beer swilling youths it wouldn't be such a issue

Well, if we got the passengers to stop using the toilets it could have the same effect.

What is wrong here is that you have a commuter train which is supposed to call into a terminus every hour or so being used to ferry people on journeys for over three hours. Sure the toilets are wonderfully designed, they may work very well - under the condiditons they were built for. If a toilet gets blocked on a surburban service then when the train pulls into Connolly or Heuston Mrs Mop gets on and cleans it and unblocks it.

Now, of course, this is subject to the fact that IE have a Mrs Mop to do this simple yet essential service. They proably dont. That is the real issue not maintenance not design. Toilets are being used in a senario they were not designed for, along with doors that open in the middle of the carriage on trains that were never designed for the Sligo run.

But sure, we told them that. However, people thought that new trains = adequate facilities. Now they know better, and also, they know just what IE thinks of them.

[KSW]

Originally Posted by StephenM

Here's a nice way to fix that problem. Install a fire alarm and sprinkler system in the toilet, if smoke is detected it sets off the sprinkler. It would solve the issue pretty quickly.

Thats not a bad idea.
I can just see the people responable going Holy S*** and getting out of the toilet as quick as possible

[KSW]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

We are still waiting on the program for government commitment to a transport police force to bear fruit

We need something like this, Bring it on I say !!!

[StephenM]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Fact is we took the time to find out why, instead of the usual grumble grumble uninformed ranting we now know what is going on.

That was a step forward I would say as I find the tone on this forum to be more anti-Irish Rail and it was good that you went to Drogheda. I'd have sympathy for the crew there more than anything else.

[Mark Gleeson]

Challenge now is how to address this issue

Fact is even when the new trains come into service this class of problem will continue as the beer cans and other debris will continue to be wedged into the toilet by those upstanding members of society who think its fun.

Sadly the modern toilet designs don't respond well to the mop and bucket routine and can require total replacement in some cases following the act of vandalism, several of the Dublin Cork trains have had brand new toilets fitted after various items where wedged into them

We are left in a difficult situation, what is better

Train has a defective toilet, does the train
1. Run at a reduced length if possible
2. Cancel and strand people
3. Run as normal

Now while the issue at hand is not really Irish Rail's fault you can be very sure they can implement some proceedures which could reduce the scale of the issue

Eliminating the yob/drinking culture off trains would be a good start

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by StephenM

I find the tone on this forum to be more anti-Irish Rail

Thank you, I'm only here because I'm a customer. If the service provider is running a service that is deficent it is the fault of the service provider.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Train has a defective toilet, does the train
1. Run at a reduced length if possible
2. Cancel and strand people
3. Run as normal

Now while the issue at hand is not really Irish Rail's fault you can be very sure they can implement some proceedures which could reduce the scale of the issue

This train was 10 mins out of connolly when this happened. A cursory inspection of the train by the staff would have resulted in, for example, Mrs Mop draining the toilet then maybe locking the door. Result is that the stuff wouldnt escape. We dont know there was a drinks can in this issue, many things block toilets, they could invest in a plunger.

[zag]

If it is the case that modern toilets on trains don't lend themselves to a quick solution with a plunger and a mop then you have to question the design criteria that were used.

We all know that almost everywhere in the world you will get vandals trying to break things. If moving from the old hole in the floor model to super whizz bang toilets which can be blocked and put out of commission 3 minutes into a 3 hour journey is seen as progress then bring back the old days is what I say.

I know we don't want to have raw sewage coating the rails (and your future garden furniture), but neither do we want to have toilets that can be decommisioned that easily and cause inconvenience to so many.

z

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Sadly the modern toilet designs don't respond well to the mop and bucket routine and can require total replacement in some cases following the act of vandalism, several of the Dublin Cork trains have had brand new toilets fitted after various items where wedged into them

Originally Posted by zag

If it is the case that modern toilets on trains don't lend themselves to a quick solution with a plunger and a mop then you have to question the design criteria that were used.

Z is correct and right. I have never heard of a toilet that has to be replaced just because something gets stuck in it. Bad design choice led to this situation.

[StephenM]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Thank you, I'm only here because I'm a customer. If the service provider is running a service that is deficent it is the fault of the service provider.

It appears I get a better service than others then... Largely I'm content but obviously there are problems. I've never found a perfect service provider to date...

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The cause of these issues is nothing short of vandalism but since you can't have CCTV in the toilet

Nothing stopping CCTV pointing at the toilet door to record who goes in though... a strategically placed mirror might help get approaches from either direction.

Look at how Supermacs were able to place CCTV in a washroom's sink area to prove a skanger was splashing water on the floor and then "slipping".

It need not be fitted as standard, but on trains which have more of an issue with scumbags it might be put as a temporary installation, with wide publicity and embarrassment to any nabbing of culprits (followed by the usual wristslap in the District Court )

[KSW]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

(followed by the usual wristslap in the District Court )

Let these people pay for the cost of damage to the train toilet