Update - On train information

Mark Gleeson · 10-02-2006, 21:12

After a looooooooong wait we finally got some answers

IE are taking steps to ensure the correct destinations are shown on services, however whether the occurs in practice is another issue (had Howth up on the back of Bray bound train tonight). This issue will require continuous monitoring
Zero progress on the on train information situation, still things have gotten worse since early December. Excuses excuses the passenger doesn't care

Legal avenues to enforce compliance are being actively investigated (it takes time to read 156 pages of instructions and rules)

Mark · 13-02-2006, 12:59

I think the back end train destinations being wrong is just plain laziness. The drivers probably reckon we know where Howth and Bray are and what direction to go in. Unfortunately we have a syndrome here in Ireland where we presume the customer knows where to go and what to do. I really would hate to be a tourist here.

Mark Gleeson · 13-02-2006, 13:27

With the platform extensions you can find yourself legging it up the platform to get on and the destination is pretty important, think coming down the stairs northbound in Dun Laoghaire, its also easy get confused on the island platform in Connolly

We have received assurances that this matter is being dealt with but in practice I'd say close to a third of all DART services show the wrong or no destination on the rear coach. The Alstom units never show a destination front or rear. Showing the wrong destination on the front coach is not terribly uncommon. Fact is if a driver fails (as he is required to) set the destination blinds correctly, it will be logged and the exact details will be forwarded to IE

To be fair the 29000 situation has seen a dramatic improvement in recent weeks but its still far from perfect. The DART automatic announcements have gotten much much worse

Its the small details people notice, they cost nothing to fix and if everyone was doing there job we wouldn't have a problem

I was travelling home on Friday evening, usual train, Australian chap bit lost first time in Dublin etc and the PIS system sat down on the train and wouldn't announce the next station, he asked several passengers where was the train etc. There was only the digital map if the guy wanted the 111 from Dun Laoghaire how would he know, its on the proper full map but not on the electronic one

Mark · 13-02-2006, 13:45

I have a large dislike for the electronic route map. I dont think its clear, its not always correct or even functioning and I definitely dont think it warrented. With a generic route map and proper announcments it wouldnt be needed.

I have even seen some of the old route maps without 'Luas' on some of the trains. How easy is it to change them? Simple stuff.

Mark Gleeson · 13-02-2006, 13:57

IE claim the missing maps are due to vandals etc eh not quite I don't think your average yob get much kudos over having a few route maps at his gaff

IE staff raided the DART fleet for maps, I'm a witness and they took every second one for the 29000 units in 2003/4 its quite a sight to see a guy with 10 under his arm

The 29000 fleet should have triggered a order in late 2003, nothing was ordered
Luas should have triggered a new map and order in mid 2004, nothing really changed some new maps we think
The cancellation of Aerdart services should have triggered a new map
The name change on Howth Junc should have triggered a order in late 2005 but alas no. IE need to order at least 1500, 2000 to be sure and to have spares, as with everything there are new maps planned

James Shields · 13-02-2006, 16:27

No doubt it will take another year for IE to produce updated maps (with a funky T21 logo, of course). Then, a month or two later, Dublin Transport will take over responsibility for things like signage and redo them all in their own style.

PaulM · 13-02-2006, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

IE claim the missing maps are due to vandals etc eh not quite I don't think your average yob get much kudos over having a few route maps at his gaff

You are wrong about that. Believe me. I'll say no more.

Mark Gleeson · 13-02-2006, 17:06

Its the fecking students then ?? "Keep off the grass" became "Keep off the lawn" in TCD which quickly solved their problem

The maps are not the most discrete things to carry and they ain't easy to remove from the plastic clip on cover generally used

I've never seen anyone remove map and I travel frequently late at night. I have seen a IE staff member leave a DART coach with approx 10 maps under his arm having removed them. That explains at least 10 maps missing probably went back for more. The 29000 fleet got maps looks like they got nicked from elsewhere

If we assume in the recent past the entire original fleet all 76 coaches had there full compliment in the recent past, thats 608 maps, I'd guess not more than 150 are left, you can explain a certain level of theft/vandalism but we are talking about 400+ maps missing, is there a black market for these things? (ebay hasn't got any)

Of course IE should have had a certain amount of spares for this they clearly don't

Red Alert · 20-02-2006, 21:17

i think the problem is that some of the older trains still have a manual scroll on them, whereas the newer ones have the digi-displays. therefore the lads probably forget to change the other cab's one.

a good PIS is what's needed, even with no voice announcements. the voice announcers should have a selection of speakers (like the Q-matic thing in banks) because the same voice gets very tiresome for regulars.

Mark Gleeson · 20-02-2006, 21:29

There are only 10 cabs with digital displays on the DART fleet the rest are manual but we are still a little confused by the Mistui coaches which may be automatic roller blinds

At Howth, Malahide or Greystones there is no excuse as the driver that brings the train in the one who brings it out so he should change the blinds. There is a rule book requirement to check the tail lights so the driver should cop the blind being wrong, The tradition always was to change the blind while the train sat in the station before the terminus (eg Shankill) so the blind would be correct to those waiting to board the return service

The 2600, 2800 fleets the blinds are automatic thus the front and rear are set and should by design always show the same. The 29000 display is very reliable and relies on the trains radio id to look up the timetable to know its destination. The 2700 fleet have never shown a destination but I'm now told parts are on order

I'm happy to report the reliability of the 29000 fleet PIS has improved dramatically in recent months and indeed is the only train to comply with the adopted regulations. To see Rosslare on the front over Christmas was a sign of progress

Mark Gleeson · 23-02-2006, 09:39

In an interesting twist I have noticed maps reappearing in what before where empty places, progress ??

The 29000 situation continues to improve slowly and Portlaoise-Kildare-Heuston, Connolly-Sligo are now programmed in. The test unit did appear on Kildare Dublin in recent days. This backs up what we got in writing recently from IE

The biggest issue left now really is faulty equipment, there are numerous electronic displays not working

James Shields · 23-02-2006, 11:35

Was looking at the display on one of the newer 2900s this morning. Someone suggested that the Irish language had been removed from the displays.

This does not appear to be the case. On my train the English version was displayed 3 times than the Irish one once. Also, the English message consisted of "This train is for X. The next station is Y. For your safety this train is equipped with CCTV." For some stops it also asked you to have your ticket ready for inspection. By contrast, the Irish version only told you the next station, so it would be easy to miss it.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just the way it is.

One slight bug in the latest version is that it seems to be very spartan with spaces. Sentences were run together with no space after the full stop, and in some cases station names ran into the surrounding words with no space.

Mark Gleeson · 23-02-2006, 11:41

Spotted the spacing bug myself last week in the scheme of things it is minor, at least the PIS is working

The Irish end of the system is fine, it will show the next station and destination in Irish thats all it needs to do really

Mark Gleeson · 15-05-2006, 17:52

On the third attempt the PIS now works correctly on the air conditioned Japanese Units

It now announces Sydney Parade yippe

CAF228 · 15-05-2006, 22:09

A few weeks ago I was on one of the 8510 sets on the way home from Connolly on a North bound DART. All of a sudden just before Killester the PA system kicks in. It says ''This train is for Bray''. A lot of people on the train look around and laugh and joke about it. It repeats itself two more times before the driver announces please ignor it this is a North bound train for Howth. Just as the driver finishes, the PA system says again, this train is for Bray and people on the train were now laughing more. I think the driver finally decided to turn it off at this point.

Speaking of the maps, I had had to explain to alot of people that got confused about the Howth branch. If you get on a North bound Dart and face North, the map on your right will be correct while the one on the left will have the Howth branch turn off on the wrong side. This is with the auto update maps. IE need to have a different set of maps to fit to one side of the train the one for the other. A lot of tourists get very confused.

10-02-2006, 21:12	#1
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Update - On train information After a looooooooong wait we finally got some answers IE are taking steps to ensure the correct destinations are shown on services, however whether the occurs in practice is another issue (had Howth up on the back of Bray bound train tonight). This issue will require continuous monitoring Zero progress on the on train information situation, still things have gotten worse since early December. Excuses excuses the passenger doesn't care Legal avenues to enforce compliance are being actively investigated (it takes time to read 156 pages of instructions and rules) Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 10-02-2006 at 21:30.

13-02-2006, 13:27	#3
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	With the platform extensions you can find yourself legging it up the platform to get on and the destination is pretty important, think coming down the stairs northbound in Dun Laoghaire, its also easy get confused on the island platform in Connolly We have received assurances that this matter is being dealt with but in practice I'd say close to a third of all DART services show the wrong or no destination on the rear coach. The Alstom units never show a destination front or rear. Showing the wrong destination on the front coach is not terribly uncommon. Fact is if a driver fails (as he is required to) set the destination blinds correctly, it will be logged and the exact details will be forwarded to IE To be fair the 29000 situation has seen a dramatic improvement in recent weeks but its still far from perfect. The DART automatic announcements have gotten much much worse Its the small details people notice, they cost nothing to fix and if everyone was doing there job we wouldn't have a problem I was travelling home on Friday evening, usual train, Australian chap bit lost first time in Dublin etc and the PIS system sat down on the train and wouldn't announce the next station, he asked several passengers where was the train etc. There was only the digital map if the guy wanted the 111 from Dun Laoghaire how would he know, its on the proper full map but not on the electronic one Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 13-02-2006 at 13:32.

13-02-2006, 13:57	#5
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	IE claim the missing maps are due to vandals etc eh not quite I don't think your average yob get much kudos over having a few route maps at his gaff IE staff raided the DART fleet for maps, I'm a witness and they took every second one for the 29000 units in 2003/4 its quite a sight to see a guy with 10 under his arm The 29000 fleet should have triggered a order in late 2003, nothing was ordered Luas should have triggered a new map and order in mid 2004, nothing really changed some new maps we think The cancellation of Aerdart services should have triggered a new map The name change on Howth Junc should have triggered a order in late 2005 but alas no. IE need to order at least 1500, 2000 to be sure and to have spares, as with everything there are new maps planned Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 13-02-2006 at 14:24.

13-02-2006, 17:06	#8
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Its the fecking students then ?? "Keep off the grass" became "Keep off the lawn" in TCD which quickly solved their problem The maps are not the most discrete things to carry and they ain't easy to remove from the plastic clip on cover generally used I've never seen anyone remove map and I travel frequently late at night. I have seen a IE staff member leave a DART coach with approx 10 maps under his arm having removed them. That explains at least 10 maps missing probably went back for more. The 29000 fleet got maps looks like they got nicked from elsewhere If we assume in the recent past the entire original fleet all 76 coaches had there full compliment in the recent past, thats 608 maps, I'd guess not more than 150 are left, you can explain a certain level of theft/vandalism but we are talking about 400+ maps missing, is there a black market for these things? (ebay hasn't got any) Of course IE should have had a certain amount of spares for this they clearly don't Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 13-02-2006 at 17:14.

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13-02-2006, 12:59	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern line Posts: 1,311	I think the back end train destinations being wrong is just plain laziness. The drivers probably reckon we know where Howth and Bray are and what direction to go in. Unfortunately we have a syndrome here in Ireland where we presume the customer knows where to go and what to do. I really would hate to be a tourist here.

13-02-2006, 13:45	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern line Posts: 1,311	I have a large dislike for the electronic route map. I dont think its clear, its not always correct or even functioning and I definitely dont think it warrented. With a generic route map and proper announcments it wouldnt be needed. I have even seen some of the old route maps without 'Luas' on some of the trains. How easy is it to change them? Simple stuff.

13-02-2006, 16:27	#6
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	No doubt it will take another year for IE to produce updated maps (with a funky T21 logo, of course). Then, a month or two later, Dublin Transport will take over responsibility for things like signage and redo them all in their own style.

20-02-2006, 21:17	#9
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	i think the problem is that some of the older trains still have a manual scroll on them, whereas the newer ones have the digi-displays. therefore the lads probably forget to change the other cab's one. a good PIS is what's needed, even with no voice announcements. the voice announcers should have a selection of speakers (like the Q-matic thing in banks) because the same voice gets very tiresome for regulars.

20-02-2006, 21:29	#10
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There are only 10 cabs with digital displays on the DART fleet the rest are manual but we are still a little confused by the Mistui coaches which may be automatic roller blinds At Howth, Malahide or Greystones there is no excuse as the driver that brings the train in the one who brings it out so he should change the blinds. There is a rule book requirement to check the tail lights so the driver should cop the blind being wrong, The tradition always was to change the blind while the train sat in the station before the terminus (eg Shankill) so the blind would be correct to those waiting to board the return service The 2600, 2800 fleets the blinds are automatic thus the front and rear are set and should by design always show the same. The 29000 display is very reliable and relies on the trains radio id to look up the timetable to know its destination. The 2700 fleet have never shown a destination but I'm now told parts are on order I'm happy to report the reliability of the 29000 fleet PIS has improved dramatically in recent months and indeed is the only train to comply with the adopted regulations. To see Rosslare on the front over Christmas was a sign of progress

23-02-2006, 09:39	#11
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	In an interesting twist I have noticed maps reappearing in what before where empty places, progress ?? The 29000 situation continues to improve slowly and Portlaoise-Kildare-Heuston, Connolly-Sligo are now programmed in. The test unit did appear on Kildare Dublin in recent days. This backs up what we got in writing recently from IE The biggest issue left now really is faulty equipment, there are numerous electronic displays not working

23-02-2006, 11:35	#12
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Was looking at the display on one of the newer 2900s this morning. Someone suggested that the Irish language had been removed from the displays. This does not appear to be the case. On my train the English version was displayed 3 times than the Irish one once. Also, the English message consisted of "This train is for X. The next station is Y. For your safety this train is equipped with CCTV." For some stops it also asked you to have your ticket ready for inspection. By contrast, the Irish version only told you the next station, so it would be easy to miss it. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just the way it is. One slight bug in the latest version is that it seems to be very spartan with spaces. Sentences were run together with no space after the full stop, and in some cases station names ran into the surrounding words with no space.

23-02-2006, 11:41	#13
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Spotted the spacing bug myself last week in the scheme of things it is minor, at least the PIS is working The Irish end of the system is fine, it will show the next station and destination in Irish thats all it needs to do really

15-05-2006, 17:52	#14
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	On the third attempt the PIS now works correctly on the air conditioned Japanese Units It now announces Sydney Parade yippe

15-05-2006, 22:09	#15
CAF228 New to the board Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1	A few weeks ago I was on one of the 8510 sets on the way home from Connolly on a North bound DART. All of a sudden just before Killester the PA system kicks in. It says ''This train is for Bray''. A lot of people on the train look around and laugh and joke about it. It repeats itself two more times before the driver announces please ignor it this is a North bound train for Howth. Just as the driver finishes, the PA system says again, this train is for Bray and people on the train were now laughing more. I think the driver finally decided to turn it off at this point. Speaking of the maps, I had had to explain to alot of people that got confused about the Howth branch. If you get on a North bound Dart and face North, the map on your right will be correct while the one on the left will have the Howth branch turn off on the wrong side. This is with the auto update maps. IE need to have a different set of maps to fit to one side of the train the one for the other. A lot of tourists get very confused.