Buttevent disaster 1980

Derek Wheeler · 24-07-2007, 20:32

RTE just screened a programme about this. In my opinion it was terrible TV. No real direction and dwelled too long on to few individuals. As is usual with a semi state broadcaster, the real detail in the dirt was avoided.

A human interest angle is always good, but you have to mix it correctly with tech stuff and format the whole thing into a decent story that anyone can watch. This tripe fell way short.

For a really classy version, think the "seconds from disaster" series.

The idea was probably submitted to RTEs IPU by someone with a clue, until a wannabe RTE head "borrowed" it to f**k it up in the only way an RTE dinosaur can. Im bitter. Sorry. But thats because I remember many years ago submitting a proposal for a 30min doc to the IPU about a person who looked after discarded pets. I remember dropping it off on deadline day and seeing a well known ex RTE DJ and owner of a production company helping himself to free views of all the submissions laid out on the floor. God I'd love to name the tosser.

Anyway, our proposal was rejected, but one very like it turned up on air months later hosted by another well known RTE stalwart. And it was a series!

Anyway. Rant over.

Thanks for listening.

2Funki4Wheelz · 25-07-2007, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Anyway, our proposal was rejected, but one very like it turned up on air months later hosted by another well known RTE stalwart. And it was a series!

Your story isn't the first I've heard of that kind of practice.

Padraic · 25-07-2007, 10:10

RTE aren't that different from Iarnrod Eireann in many respects; recruitment by nepotism and dinosaur trade unions, eh?

Derek Wheeler · 25-07-2007, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Funki4Wheelz

Your story isn't the first I've heard of that kind of practice.

Spot on. This has been going on for years. A pity really, as it leads to very badly made programmes like Tuesday night. (Not that the Buttevent piece was ripped off. Im only speculating.)

Derek Wheeler · 25-07-2007, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padraic

RTE aren't that different from Iarnrod Eireann in many respects; recruitment by nepotism and dinosaur trade unions, eh?

Very true Padraic. While we have documented the CIE/IE story, the RTE version is very very similar. Any real talent (production wise) tends to make a quick break for it to the UK. There have been many like the Director of Father Ted......he ran after directing the Eurovision in 1988. (noted as the one that changed presentation and production values and set the stall out for future shows. Music accepted.) Real talent never stayed in RTE and never will.

sean · 26-07-2007, 18:23

The piece did, of course, fail to mention that insignificant little point that the front 3 coaches after the loco and gen van were made of wood - a wooden 1st and 2 diner cars, and for some inexplicable reason

these cheap plywood museum pieces were all totally demolished while the metal Cravens behind either stayed at least partially intact or didn't even leave the track.

Funny that.

Mark Gleeson · 26-07-2007, 20:24

Won't mention the first cravens coach ended up wrapped around the wooden coach ahead

Do the same accident and mix Mk2d and cravens and you won't have much left of the cravens

Derek Wheeler · 26-07-2007, 21:19

Plus the fact that similar wooden coaches were the cause of deaths a couple of years later at cherryville. No accountability. It was the 90s before wooden coaches disappeared.

Good documentary tells the story as was and if really good, opens the gate to what if and what next.

Face it folks RTE wouldn't have the balls to screen the real truth about Buttevent and cherryville the way I'd tell the story. Someone somewhere after cherryville should have been jailed. Bad work practices and poor rolling stock. No lessons learned until a second disaster and even then a third world response.

philip · 26-07-2007, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

It was the 90s before wooden coaches disappeared.

Jesus Christ. Makes you think. Imagine if we did proper high speed rail with british or continental frequencies.

dermo88 · 27-07-2007, 08:39

This is with credit to Mark (markitg) from IRN, who is one of the good guys over there. This is from Nationwide.

This gives a deeper insight to the disaster. I do not know if this was shown on the RTE documentary, but a few key quotes:

"The death toll lies at 17, with 8 on the critical list out of 44 injured"

"Badly set points"

"The report was harsh on CIE management, citing bad communication with staff, bad supervision and organisational weakness"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0731/nat...63825,null,200

Mark Gleeson · 27-07-2007, 10:44

There where several people in the chain of events who could have prevented the accident. Fundamentally it was an avoidable accident and if anyone in the chain had said no it would have not happened.

Cherryville 1983 was as most accidents are a werid set of events, the reason the train stopped is totally irrelevant. It was technically avoidable however the magic rule 55g actually permitted the driver to pass the red signal. While there is all kind of discusions about dodgy telephones, bad tail lamps, no radios and disputes over the time it took the guard of the Tralee train to go back and protect the train, the Galway train passed a red signal in compliance with the rule book and tail ended the Tralee train. The CIE rule book was unclear about the speed to adopt in this condition.

Dalkey 1979 was a straightforward signal passed at danger, again the reason the train ahead was stationary is irrelevant

Derek Wheeler · 27-07-2007, 21:32

Re Cherryville.

And don't forget that the loco on the Tralee train was a replacement sent from Waterford.The fuel wasn't checked and the loco had no fuel guage, so the driver couldn't tell what was happening. There's a chain of events attached to that particular episode.

In all fairness, the company was run like a ******** at the time (not that its much better now) and management hadn't a clue how to manage their staff, guidelines and rule book. It starts at the top. Never forget that.

Baz · 29-04-2008, 16:55

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0731/nat...63825,null,200

God that was a fueled Nationwide - the Miami Showband as well

I think they key issue is that the government of Ireland is reactive (I would love to say governments, but the last true change was probably the Home Rule act).

24-07-2007, 20:32	#1
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Buttevent disaster 1980 RTE just screened a programme about this. In my opinion it was terrible TV. No real direction and dwelled too long on to few individuals. As is usual with a semi state broadcaster, the real detail in the dirt was avoided. A human interest angle is always good, but you have to mix it correctly with tech stuff and format the whole thing into a decent story that anyone can watch. This tripe fell way short. For a really classy version, think the "seconds from disaster" series. The idea was probably submitted to RTEs IPU by someone with a clue, until a wannabe RTE head "borrowed" it to f**k it up in the only way an RTE dinosaur can. Im bitter. Sorry. But thats because I remember many years ago submitting a proposal for a 30min doc to the IPU about a person who looked after discarded pets. I remember dropping it off on deadline day and seeing a well known ex RTE DJ and owner of a production company helping himself to free views of all the submissions laid out on the floor. God I'd love to name the tosser. Anyway, our proposal was rejected, but one very like it turned up on air months later hosted by another well known RTE stalwart. And it was a series! Anyway. Rant over. Thanks for listening.

29-04-2008, 16:55	#13
Baz New to the board Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8	http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0731/nat...63825,null,200 God that was a fueled Nationwide - the Miami Showband as well I think they key issue is that the government of Ireland is reactive (I would love to say governments, but the last true change was probably the Home Rule act). __________________ - Father is External Safety Inspector

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25-07-2007, 10:10	#3
Padraic New to the board Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 4	RTE aren't that different from Iarnrod Eireann in many respects; recruitment by nepotism and dinosaur trade unions, eh?

26-07-2007, 18:23	#6
sean Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 707	The piece did, of course, fail to mention that insignificant little point that the front 3 coaches after the loco and gen van were made of wood - a wooden 1st and 2 diner cars, and for some inexplicable reason these cheap plywood museum pieces were all totally demolished while the metal Cravens behind either stayed at least partially intact or didn't even leave the track. Funny that.

26-07-2007, 20:24	#7
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Won't mention the first cravens coach ended up wrapped around the wooden coach ahead Do the same accident and mix Mk2d and cravens and you won't have much left of the cravens

26-07-2007, 21:19	#8
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Plus the fact that similar wooden coaches were the cause of deaths a couple of years later at cherryville. No accountability. It was the 90s before wooden coaches disappeared. Good documentary tells the story as was and if really good, opens the gate to what if and what next. Face it folks RTE wouldn't have the balls to screen the real truth about Buttevent and cherryville the way I'd tell the story. Someone somewhere after cherryville should have been jailed. Bad work practices and poor rolling stock. No lessons learned until a second disaster and even then a third world response.

27-07-2007, 08:39	#10
dermo88 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	This is with credit to Mark (markitg) from IRN, who is one of the good guys over there. This is from Nationwide. This gives a deeper insight to the disaster. I do not know if this was shown on the RTE documentary, but a few key quotes: "The death toll lies at 17, with 8 on the critical list out of 44 injured" "Badly set points" "The report was harsh on CIE management, citing bad communication with staff, bad supervision and organisational weakness" http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0731/nat...63825,null,200

27-07-2007, 10:44	#11
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There where several people in the chain of events who could have prevented the accident. Fundamentally it was an avoidable accident and if anyone in the chain had said no it would have not happened. Cherryville 1983 was as most accidents are a werid set of events, the reason the train stopped is totally irrelevant. It was technically avoidable however the magic rule 55g actually permitted the driver to pass the red signal. While there is all kind of discusions about dodgy telephones, bad tail lamps, no radios and disputes over the time it took the guard of the Tralee train to go back and protect the train, the Galway train passed a red signal in compliance with the rule book and tail ended the Tralee train. The CIE rule book was unclear about the speed to adopt in this condition. Dalkey 1979 was a straightforward signal passed at danger, again the reason the train ahead was stationary is irrelevant

27-07-2007, 21:32	#12
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Re Cherryville. And don't forget that the loco on the Tralee train was a replacement sent from Waterford.The fuel wasn't checked and the loco had no fuel guage, so the driver couldn't tell what was happening. There's a chain of events attached to that particular episode. In all fairness, the company was run like a ******** at the time (not that its much better now) and management hadn't a clue how to manage their staff, guidelines and rule book. It starts at the top. Never forget that.