Paris Trams Return after nearly 70 years

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Very Luas-ish type system they went for as well. I think this kind of rail really is the future of urban transit as the grey areas between trams and metros is fading all the time. Dublin may actually be on the forefront of this trend in public transport for once (well at least, just behind Amsterdam and Hanover).

Facinating how the Paris system had to deal with the same professional NIMBY-ism as Luas and negativity. The article brings up a very good point about sound pollution caused by road traffic. This is hardly ever talked about in Dublin or Ireland in general.



Paris tram makes a comeback
Caroline Wyatt


By Caroline Wyatt
BBC Paris correspondent

Alternatives to driving are always welcome in Paris
This month, work began on the first new tramway to be built in central Paris for more than 60 years.

An eight-kilometre (five-mile) stretch is to be built in the 14th arrondissement, south of the River Seine, to link the Pont de Garigliano on the city's western edge with the Porte d'Ivry to the south-east.

You might think that Parisians would be sighing happily with nostalgia for the days when pedestrians could hear the rattle of the rails and the clang of a tram bell, rather than the noise of horns.

But the Tramway de Marechaux Sud project (TMS) has long been controversial, and the chopping down of some 75 trees along a green city avenue to make way for the tram-lines has re-ignited a heated debate which began in 2001.

The plans are all part of the Paris Mayor Bernard Delanoe's promise to "green" transport in the French capital.

He says the tramway with its 17 stops should take up to 28 million passengers a year when the service opens in 2006, and will cut down 25% of traffic in the area - all at a cost of a mere 260 million euros.

The tram, travelling at 20km an hour, won't be quite as picturesque as its 1930s predecessors but a sleek, modern version with on-board information screens for passengers.

Car-ridden desert

But the chopping down of the trees on 15 July on the Boulevard Jourdan was described as a "massacre" by local environmentalists.

The tramway should have been built on existing rail tracks, they argue, many of which have lain disused since Paris gave up most of its tramlines in the 1930s in favour of the motorcar, metro and buses.

Only two other tram services are still running, both on shorter stretches.

Earlier this month, the Association for the Defence of the Environment in the Montsouris Park (ADEPAM) called on local people in the 14th to join in a march against the "undesirable" tram.

The irony is that the politician in charge of the project, and Paris transport networks generally, is a Green, Denis Baupin, who says that the temporary travails are worth it for the end result.

Mr Baupin admits that authorising an axe to be taken to the trees was not a great moment for a Green, but that with 2,240 trees planned along the route, the initial sacrifice of some existing greenery was necessary.

It was done in the early morning hours "to avoid disrupting the traffic".

He's now sent out an open letter to local residents, asking them to be patient and describing the tram as a unique opportunity to reinvigorate, both economically and visually - an area that's become something of a car-ridden desert.

Noise and air pollution

He promises a better quality of life for all thanks to the new tramline.

The peripherique is often jammed in both directions
There are many supporters of this project, and even more ambitious plans to create a whole new "beltway" tramline all the way around Paris.

Though the Paris metro is popular, and the buses run frequently, car travel in Paris is becoming increasingly difficult.

On working days the peripherique motorway around the city is jammed in both directions, and finding parking in the centre is a daily chore.

The extensive tram network which used to run through the city is now seen as a possible solution, not for the centre where the streets are too narrow, but for the outlying suburbs, where noise and air pollution from the busy motorways is an increasing problem.

Residents near the peripherique currently put up with noise levels of up to 100 decibels.

On the whole, local people are guardedly supportive of the new tram line, but most say they'll reserve judgement on the promises of local politicians until the tram itself is up and running.

**********************************

Paris welcomes trams back to town

The new T3 tram
Trams are faster to construct than underground trains


Paris has inaugurated a modern electric tram line along a section of the city's inner ring road, the first time trams have run in the city since 1937.

Mayor Bertrand Delanoe rode the first tram on the new T3 line, built to offer Parisians environmentally-friendly public transport.

The line is set to carry 100,000 people a day along a crowded section on the Left Bank of the Seine.

The opening was boycotted by right-wing opposition parties.

They have opposed the 300m euro ($400m; £200m) development, calling it a waste of money.

But Mr Delanoe defended the tram project, the largest public transport project for Paris since the city's ring road was built in the 1970s.

"We need to respond to pollution with action, it's a necessity of public health and civilisation," he said.

"Half of the planet's population lives in towns today, so we need to make behaviour evolve."

World approval

Tram lines already run in some suburban areas outside Paris' city limits.

But the new tram is the first within the metropolitan area since Paris's extensive tram network was finally closed just before World War II.

Those trams, which began as horse-drawn carriages, ran from the mid-19th Century and predated the city's underground Metro system.

The new line runs through 17 stops in the city's 13th, 14th and 15th arrondissements, to link the Garigliano bridge on the city's western edge with the Porte d'Ivry to the south-east.

There are plans to expand the network to other areas of the city.

Journeys on the new line will be free during the tram's inaugural weekend, with fares after that costing the same as the bus line the tram has replaced.

The mayors of Beirut, London, Montreal, Barcelona, Bamako, Stockholm and Antananarivo were in Paris for the opening ceremony.

[Derek Wheeler]

In a city such as paris, that has more than one ring road, an extensive underground metro system, excellent approach roads and a suburban and intercity rail system, any comparison with Dublin being a trendsetter is utterly laughable.

Light rail is a very useful and reletively cheap solution. It is easier to implement in Paris, because it is not a car dependent city. The road space is available to build on. These new trams are being built to integrate with the existing and very efficient system.

In Dublin the luas integrates with virtually nothing and hasn't even put a small dent in addressing congestion. Our existing rail system is a badly planned joke. Government priority rates it as low to middling. (while it actually has the potential to put a big dent in congestion.) Metro North and Metro west are by my reckoning already outdated concepts before a sod has been turned. I remain unconvinced that this new "light metro" concept can help Dublin. Furthermore I don't believe that any of the proposed Luas lines will ease things either.

You see, its about proper planning. We need to examine car commuting patterns and congested routes. Ascertain the reasons for using the car on these routes. Study the existing and future locations of high employment Industrial/business parks and their requirements for public transport. When we have done that we can start solving the problems.

T21 , in railway/bus terms, is a joke. Its a grouping of "pet" high profile infrastructural projects that are ill thought out and stand at the precipice of billions in expenditure on projects that won't make one bit of difference to Ireland's eternal slide into car dependency.

Love T21 all you like, but in terms of helping Dublin, its based on Government and state agency whims and not on the actual problem of problem solving. Ive studied it for a year, discussed it for a year, done the IE Vs RPA Vs DB thing and I arrive at the same conclusion. Its not a plan. There is no plan. Only individual projects based on the DTOs platform for change, which was based on plans/ideas formulated in the 1970s. We already have a ringroad (M50) that resulted from the same 1970s thinking. We are currently spending millions on upgrading it and planning another ringroad to be an actual ringroad.

The mistakes on roads are about to be repeated on public transport projects just when we need them the most. I'll bet my house on it.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

In a city such as paris, that has more than one ring road, an extensive underground metro system, excellent approach roads and a suburban and intercity rail system, any comparison with Dublin being a trendsetter is utterly laughable.

Dublin's Luas (and this is what I was talking about) has been cited as a trend setter by city councils in Liverpool, Edinburough and even Belfast.

Paris started their Metro following the end of the Franco-Prussian war. It was a prestiege project like the Eifel Tower to show off French engineering and science to the world. The Paris Metro was not built in desparation to solve a traffic and planning crisis like Dublin - they had time to do it the way they wanted. The road layout of Paris was designed to shoot cannons down at invading armines and not good urban planning or for future light rail. Paris was then the centre of a major world empire and loads of money to spend. Even so, the modern AutoRoute system in France really only got going in the 1980's.

Ireland was on the other hand, a provincial backwater of another Empire and Dublin had no more influence than Cardiff, Nottingham or Dundee. Dublin is years behind Paris for many reasons and not because they are genius and we Irish are always thickos. History, economics, population demographics and many other factors are the main reasons.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Light rail is a very useful and reletively cheap solution.

High capacity and fast as well.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

It is easier to implement in Paris, because it is not a car dependent city. The road space is available to build on. These new trams are being built to integrate with the existing and very efficient system.

The traffic congestion in Paris even with all the public transport is as bad as Dublin. The had to build massive underground car parks in the citycentre to deal with the parking problem. It may not be a car dependent city to the extent that Dublin is, but they are addicted to their cars there. The public transport options seem to mean little to millions of Parisians on a daily basis. They still drive right into the heart of the city as their first transport option. Like Dublin and Athens, car ownership is a cultural thing as well as transport.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

In Dublin the luas integrates with virtually nothing and hasn't even put a small dent in addressing congestion.

Intergrates with Dart, Suburban and Mailline rail at two locations, while the Phoenix Park Tunnel is left to rot by CIE. Any of its shortcommings are not the fault of Luas at all. In fact, considering the extreme limitations placed on it by "the Gap" and the 30M trans on the Tallaght line, Luas has been incredibly successful. It has even done a lot to fill in urban density. Luas and Metro may actually be the answer to the sprawl in a chicken and egg kinda way. There is certainly plently of anecdotal evidence to suggest this.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Our existing rail system is a badly planned joke. Government priority rates it as low to middling. (while it actually has the potential to put a big dent in congestion.)

But the rail lines are limited by their victorian geographic locations. The Interconnector will do a lot to helping this historical legacy out. Otherwise Luas and Metro is the best way to deal with legacy of the Liam Lawlors and Ray Burkes. And it's a worthwhile and intelligent solution at that. Unless you can build a Tardis and go back to the 1960's, there is no other option to an exapanded Luas and Metro.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Metro North and Metro west are by my reckoning already outdated concepts before a sod has been turned. I remain unconvinced that this new "light metro" concept can help Dublin. Furthermore I don't believe that any of the proposed Luas lines will ease things either.

Light Rail and Light Metros are being built in cities all over the world. If Dublin is outdated then so will Oporto, Amsterdam, Boston, Melbourne, Portland, Hanover and Paris. Dublin will be in very good "out dated" company.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

You see, its about proper planning. We need to examine car commuting patterns and congested routes. Ascertain the reasons for using the car on these routes. Study the existing and future locations of high employment Industrial/business parks and their requirements for public transport. When we have done that we can start solving the problems.

This is what T21 is. The DTO did some pretty impressive traffic management modelling and all this stuff is well known and accepted. Things are happening, not fast enough, but the ball is finally moving at last. T21 is not perfect, but compared to what we being offered in the mid 1990's it is a dream come true.

T21 is the best offer we are going to get - deal with it. Rather than attacking it constantly how about trying to influence it and bend the envelope towards getting the PPT and Drumcondra Rail/Bus Interchange, direct curves at Clonmel and Athenry included. Adaptability within T21 rather than outright hostility or just hopping it'll go away. Cos' it ain't goona happen.

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by Nigel Fitzgricer

(Luas..)Intergrates with Dart, Suburban and Mailline rail at two locations,

arse

(can I say that here? referring to the statement above, not the person)

Connolly? Integrate? Have you ever tried it?
Better to hop off at Tara and go over to Abbey and hope that the DART you waited 15 minutes for hasn't come at a gap in the luas timetable.

"integrated" doesn't just mean "stops vaguely near."

[Garrett]

Just a few comments

Originally Posted by Nigel Fitzgricer

Dublin's Luas (and this is what I was talking about) has been cited as a trend setter by city councils in Liverpool, Edinburough and even Belfast.

Funny how British and Irish cities always look to other British and Irish cities for inspiration. In transport evolutionary terms this is called in-breeding. In reality, Dublin's Luas is not a trend setter, but just following the crowd. Just a few examples in France:
Orléans (2000): www.semtao.fr
Bordeaux (2003): www.infotbc.com
Strasbourg - 4 lines (1994-2000): www.cts-strasbourg.fr

And all the rest: http://world.nycsubway.org/eu/index.html

The Paris Metro was not built in desparation to solve a traffic and planning crisis like Dublin - they had time to do it the way they wanted.

Exactly!! You hit the nail on the head! No transport policy should ever be built in desperation to solve a traffic and planning crisis! That's the problem - the government and other pretentious know-it-alls are doing exactly that because they got caught sitting on their backsides, instead of looking to the future, and always being ahead of the game.

Dublin is years behind Paris for many reasons and not because they are genius and we Irish are always thickos

Somewhat true. But some of our greatest transport problems are caused by our inability (or at least our government's/CIE's inability) to understand basic concepts such as efficient ticketing and integration, as well as some dodgy infrastructure ideas (Port tunnel?? separated tramlines? utterly disgraceful signage - both on our road and public transport network).

Just my two cents.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

arse

(can I say that here? referring to the statement above, not the person)

Dosen't bother me, it's the modertors call.

Now listen to me carefully... The Luas integrates at Connolly. I swear to you on Todd Andrew's grave that it does. Please try to accept this. I want so much for you to beleive in this. In fact, I have a personal evangelical-like quest to make you see the truth on this issue.

The Luas trams stop is below the main concourse at Connolly. If you walk through the glass doors at Connolly and look down there are Luas trams waiting there. Right there within IE employee second-hand smoke range.

If one has normal functioning legs, its an easy integration. This would be considered perfectly acceptable integration between two rail services anywhere in the world.

In fact, I can think of places were it's even a worse integration such as the PATH trains stopping one subway station away from Penn Station in Manhattan and you need to buy a subway token to get between the two terminals. How come New Yorkers/New Jerseyites can deal with that and apparently a flight of stairs (free of charge too!) at the end of the concourse at Connolly is not integrated to you?

Connolly? Integrate? Have you ever tried it?

Yes all the time. It is intergrated. It is perfectly acceptable for urban transit mode changing. I can walk to it from the Sligo train, I do it all the time. Luas integrates with DART, Suburban and Mainline Rail at Connolly. It even integrates with a couple of busy Bus Eireann services at that location too. What more do you want in terms of integration? Some kind of quantum field generator which transforms your DART carraige into a Luas Tram as you remain sitting in it while it passes over Butt Bridge?

Better to hop off at Tara and go over to Abbey and hope that the DART you waited 15 minutes for hasn't come at a gap in the luas timetable.

Hey, whatever works for you... Myself, I have no fear of either stairs, escalators or indeed walking past the open door jacks in Connolly to get to Luas. I am perfectly happy with the situation at Connolly as being intergrated as I understand it.

"integrated" doesn't just mean "stops vaguely near."

Indeed...and hence why I have no personal phobia about Connolly and the Luas. You are perfectly entitled to burden yourself with by getting off at Tara Street and walking to Abbey Street as your personal struggle against the unintegrated horror that is Connolly.

If you think Connolly Luas isn't integrated, then you are going to be in for one hell of a surprise when Docklands gets finally "integrated" with the Luas - ala Dr Lynch style and you'll never complain about Connolly not being integrated ever again.

Do also I have to mention CIE "integration" between Connolly and Busaras or would you consider that to be intergrated simply because the employees are all in the same union?

Merry Christmas.

[alek smart]

Wow...Sap rising here alright !!!

Two items from the original Post re the Parisian Tram caught my eye.

The first is the Trams themselves which are immediately identifiable as being an integral part of the RATP system,given they are painted in RATP colours.

Second....Mention of the Fare structure being the same as the regular RATP services.

Lets face it,even after all of the €36 Billion T21 stash is spent we are still not sure of such a level of integration in Dublin Public Transport operations.
The gaultlet thrown down by the Local Authorities Representative Group already puts T21 and its proponents on a collision course with those who should be entirely behind the bloody thing !!!

Merde ( as they might exclaim in Gaye P)

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Just a few comments

Funny how British and Irish cities always look to other British and Irish cities for inspiration.

Hardly surprising as it's a cultural thing. In Canada, they base their commuter rail mainly on USA practice and kit.

Originally Posted by Garrett

Exactly!! You hit the nail on the head! No transport policy should ever be built in desperation to solve a traffic and planning crisis! That's the problem - the government and other pretentious know-it-alls are doing exactly that because they got caught sitting on their backsides, instead of looking to the future, and always being ahead of the game.

Of course that is true. But here we are. Post 60 years of CIE poor service, Liam Lawlor is rotting in the ground, all the terrible planning decisions have manifested from Gorey to Navan. We should have kept the Dublin Tram network. Never closed Harcourt Street, Navan line and built the original DART rail plan for Dublin. But none of these things happened and we are were we are today mainly becuase the country was a poverty-stricken hole were urban living was considered unpatriotic. No point in crying over spilled milk and saying "we should have planned" when we failed as a nation to do this. The damage is done.

Transport21 is the best offer we are going to get. Sometimes you have to play with the hand of cards the dealer gives you and try to stay in the game and play it to your advantage rather protesting and going home with the arse out of your trousers while everybody else is still playing. T21 is the only game in town. It's not going to be scrapped.

Originally Posted by Garrett

Somewhat true. But some of our greatest transport problems are caused by our inability (or at least our government's/CIE's inability) to understand basic concepts such as efficient ticketing and integration, as well as some dodgy infrastructure ideas (Port tunnel?? separated tramlines? utterly disgraceful signage - both on our road and public transport network).

I agree completely.

We have to move on from the historical transport and planning mess we have inheirited and stop complaining about stuff which happened years ago. It's history. It's T21 from this point forward and keep pluuging away to get add-ons which make sense rather than announcing the whole thing is rubbish. Because its not rubbish - T21 has all the right cards, it's up to P11 and others to make sure the cards in the right order.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Metro North and Metro west are by my reckoning already outdated concepts before a sod has been turned.

Why?

You see, its about proper planning. We need to examine car commuting patterns and congested routes. Ascertain the reasons for using the car on these routes. Study the existing and future locations of high employment Industrial/business parks and their requirements for public transport. When we have done that we can start solving the problems.

Isn't that what the DTO have spent the last 10 years doing? Didn't they base Platform for Change on all this analysis which the government then based T21 on? Sounds like you want to pause everything pay millions on consultants reports on analysing traffic patterns then decide what to build. Jaysus we'd still be here in 2015 and nothing would be built. Mary O'Rourke how are ya!

T21 , in railway/bus terms, is a joke. Its a grouping of "pet" high profile infrastructural projects that are ill thought out and stand at the precipice of billions in expenditure on projects that won't make one bit of difference to Ireland's eternal slide into car dependency.

Derek I really can't understand why you feel T21 will not make a difference. Remember the Interconnector/Dublin Rail Plan which P11 promoted so vigourously and you said many times in the media, on the airwaves and message board posts would make a huge difference to traffic congestion. Last time I looked that was part of T21, same with Metro North, P11 got practically everything it campaigned for and now you turn around and say it's an outdated concept

It isn't all that long ago that Brennan was in charge. Back then there was no talk of interconnector and the Metro proposal was an unintegrated joke. The orbital metro was a nice idea but we all expected it to stay just that - an idea. Back then P11 had a lot to despair about. Now less than 3 years later these projects are all going ahead, not in the right order but at least they're going ahead.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Dave

Now less than 3 years later these projects are all going ahead, not in the right order but at least they're going ahead.

No, the only thing really going ahead is the election.

Aside from that you have the KRP, Midleton and Ennis-Athenry, and Cherrywood.

The Metro North project is a likely yes to I reckon so to give an "impression" of modernity to travellers from the Airport, EU friends etc.

After that well, god knows what may or may not happen anytime soon. I think realistically the roads netwrok is the priority for the government now, not rail.

Transport 21 isn't about solving congestion - it's about being seen to recognise the public's desire for better public transport without having to deliver it.

[sponge]

Originally Posted by Dave

Derek I really can't understand why you feel T21 will not make a difference. Remember the Interconnector/Dublin Rail Plan which P11 promoted so vigourously and you said many times in the media, on the airwaves and message board posts would make a huge difference to traffic congestion. Last time I looked that was part of T21, same with Metro North, P11 got practically everything it campaigned for and now you turn around and say it's an outdated concept

It isn't all that long ago that Brennan was in charge. Back then there was no talk of interconnector and the Metro proposal was an unintegrated joke. The orbital metro was a nice idea but we all expected it to stay just that - an idea. Back then P11 had a lot to despair about. Now less than 3 years later these projects are all going ahead, not in the right order but at least they're going ahead.

Hear Hear! Very well put. P11 can't go bashing T21 so vigoursly after campaigning for substantial parts of it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Navan Junction

No, the only thing really going ahead is the election.

Aside from that you have the KRP, Midleton and Ennis-Athenry, and Cherrywood.

The Metro North project is a likely yes to I reckon so to give an "impression" of modernity to travellers from the Airport, EU friends etc.

After that well, god knows what may or may not happen anytime soon. I think realistically the roads netwrok is the priority for the government now, not rail.

Transport 21 isn't about solving congestion - it's about being seen to recognise the public's desire for better public transport without having to deliver it.

I understand your cynicism after all the false promises made by politicians regarding Navan over the years, however (call me a fool if you like) I genuinely do believe most if not all of T21 will be delivered. It's up to organisations like P11 to keep the pressure on and make sure it is delivered.

Just on a side note NJ - prior to T21 was reopening Navan ever openly stated overall government policy or was it just promises made by individual politicians?

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by Dave

prior to T21 was reopening Navan ever openly stated overall government policy or was it just promises made by individual politicians?

It was in Platform for Change... Which appeared at the same time before the last election as T21 has appeared this time..

Originally Posted by Dave

I genuinely do believe most if not all of T21 will be delivered.

I'm sure most of it will be but I have serious doubts about the real timescales involved.

T21 is portrayed as the great leap forward - but it isn't really happening, not in the way the T21 timeline would lead you to believe..

Originally Posted by Dave

It's up to organisations like P11 to keep the pressure on and make sure it is delivered.

And that if not an impossible task, is definately a thankless one. The new road network is being built without any campaigns. The rail network is being dragged along despite the efforts of many.

Unfortunately, focus groups dictate government action, and making sufficient dents at focus group level to ensure movement is easier said then done..

If only the opposition parties would drive forward the public transport issue then we would see movement.

[Mark Gleeson]

The day will come in future where the influence P11 has had will be acknowledged. The RPA I think will admit that if pushed, IE have a complex about admitting to anything

Its fairly clear the metro is something we had a serious impact on and certainly we got the interconnector on the table

Politicians of course are a problem, they are greedy and only want to get elected, if you look at a proper railway e.g. Japan or Switzerland (even the UK is the 1980's) there is long standing long term support for rail development the money is there and the railway administration has significant freedom on where it is spent once it makes a return

T21 is full of political ass coverage the lack of start dates makes it impossible to record anything as late until the day it is supposed to open

As Navan Junction well knows the M3 contract guarantees a monopoly on its builders i.e. no government sponsored competition e.g. railway

Given the commitment has been given very publicly, quite unlike PFC which was just a 'suggestion' not actually policy T21 is here to stay and it will happen, the order will be screwed up some pieces not really required eg Lucan Luas or city centre link will fall on cost benefit as will WRC

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Dave

Why?



Isn't that what the DTO have spent the last 10 years doing? Didn't they base Platform for Change on all this analysis which the government then based T21 on? Sounds like you want to pause everything pay millions on consultants reports on analysing traffic patterns then decide what to build. Jaysus we'd still be here in 2015 and nothing would be built. Mary O'Rourke how are ya!




Derek I really can't understand why you feel T21 will not make a difference. Remember the Interconnector/Dublin Rail Plan which P11 promoted so vigourously and you said many times in the media, on the airwaves and message board posts would make a huge difference to traffic congestion. Last time I looked that was part of T21, same with Metro North, P11 got practically everything it campaigned for and now you turn around and say it's an outdated concept

It isn't all that long ago that Brennan was in charge. Back then there was no talk of interconnector and the Metro proposal was an unintegrated joke. The orbital metro was a nice idea but we all expected it to stay just that - an idea. Back then P11 had a lot to despair about. Now less than 3 years later these projects are all going ahead, not in the right order but at least they're going ahead.

1.Metro north and west are outdated already by definition of whats being built in terms of road traffic patterns along the route.

2. The DTOs "studies" for platform for change are already 10 years old. PFC was released in 1996. They are currently engaged in "new" surveys of road commuting patterns. I don't make the decisions, I only comment on them.

3. The interconnector/DRP is only a part of T21. In fact it was there long before T21 was even mentioned. T21 is irrelevent in relation to it. You're confusing a "specific" plan with a "broad" plan. P11 only campaigned agressively for it when the Government decided on the lottery that was T21. Circa 2004. Don't confuse my opinion with that of P11, until P11 make a statement on it that may or may not be similar. This is only a forum for discussion.

4. P11 campaigned for the interconnector/drp and an improved metro in terms of integration. We got that to some extent. But my personal opinion remains that in an overall context, T21 is based on old outdated information, a myriad of long proposed projects and polictical games, to portray some kind of committment towards public transport from Government. None of which will achieve a system that delivers whast 21st century Dublin/Ireland need

Dave, if you like many others, wish to believe in T21 and its benefits, then so be it. Personally, I don't. I believe in the DRP. I believe in metro concepts north and west (but not in how they are being implemented) I support the extension of Luas, but believe that its being done on the basis of future development as opposed to existing development. (the RPA are heavily tied to future development in order to fund PPPs)

What I write here is my personal opinion and not that of P11. While I will make it known at committee level, its up to the committee as a whole to make a final decision.

For now, I am prepared to stand my ground on the fact that I believe T21 in its "rail" entirety, is badly planned,(recent analysis) a mish mash of previously announced projects, (navan, midleton etc.) a featurette of new projects (interconnector/DRP) and the inclusion of politically motivated projects such as the WRC.

With the exception of roads, the WRC and the Midleton line, the rest is based on Platform for change, a document from 1996. In 1996, I could drive the M50without much inconvenience during peak. Today, forget it.

Things have changed a lot in 10 years, so I'll be different and predict doom and gloom. If Im wrong, Im wrong. If Im right, nobody will notice and the game will go on.

Cynicism can be very negative yet very rewarding. Its the flip of a coin. I enjoy public transport history and the political side to it. There's a pattern. I can't be the only one to see it.

Enjoy the board Dave. Im only one of many. Thanks for your thoughts. Always appreciated.

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by sponge

Hear Hear! Very well put. P11 can't go bashing T21 so vigoursly after campaigning for substantial parts of it.

Get your facts straight.

Derek Wheeler went bashing T21, not P11. I am the spokesperson, in relation to official policy. What Im expressing here is my own personal opinion. Furthermore, P11 has only commented (in the media) on specific projects and never on the overall detail of T21. Considering that detail is lacking, then it would be improper of us to comment at this point.

Below is what P11 said in relation to T21

http://www.platform11.org/media/pres...no=pr_045.html

[Thomas J Stamp]

Imagine a Chicken. That Chicken is called T21, and it comes with legs, wings, breasts, tighs, lets call them Interconnector, Metro, LUAS, Navan.

I llike breasts, but I dont like wings. Does that mean I dont like Chicken?

Chicken is a package, like T21, I dislike Chicken as a package but I like bits of Chicken.

What's the problem with that?

T21 is, as I have been pointing out since last year, nothing new. There is absolutly nothing new in T21, its the same stuff, all in a new package. The individual bits all have the same merits and demerits as before. Anyone who thinks otherwise should have their vote taken off them.

[Colm Donoghue]

Nigel, can you tell me where along the red luas line I can buy a tram ticket that also works on trains?

E.g. I arrive at the red cow park and ride, pay once for the car park. I cannot buy a ticket to go to rush and lusk. Or can I?
so I buy a tram ticket to connolly and then a train ticket to rush and lusk. this is not integrated.

the luas is only adjacent.

[Colm Donoghue]

8km
260million euros
17 stops

how does our luas compare?

[MrX]

Not that different really:

The current 24km of Luas cost about €800m — or €33m per km

Although Luas largely ran over the Harcourt line on the green route
and over relatively cheap land into Talaght.

The paris line's right through the city itself.

(Although on public roads too)

I think Luas has been a general PR success story though and might help future line development.
People have seen their house prices rocket along the line and I don't think you'll see as many objectors as you saw with the initial project. People see the benefits and have largely forgotten about the disruption during construction phases.