Late night DART

[ccos]

From todays Irish Independant.

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Attention: : . . . the last DART leaves at 11.30pm

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IARNROD Eireann will not be running any late-night DART or commuter service this Christmas because there is no demand.

The company said yesterday that despite an extensive marketing campaign last year, take up of services had been "very low" and so it was decided not to run a service this year because it was too expensive.

"There will be no late-night DARTs this year, the numbers were extremely poor and there was very little take-up last year.

"There's a very big cost to us in terms of manpower and security. We will put on additional capacity for shoppers but the last trains will be at 11.30pm as per the schedule."

Yesterday model Roberta Rowat (right) announced Bus Eireann's Nightrider late-night service to Newbridge, Drogheda, Navan, Enfield and Wicklow will be extended to run six days a week from next Thursday.

Buses depart Busaras at 12.30am and 3.30am, and the cost is between €7 and €10. The service will not run on Sundays.

The Nightrider buses will operate until December 23, and then on December 29 and December 30.

Dublin Bus has also announced its Nitelink service will operate every night, apart from Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and New Year's Day, until January 6. The service will be extended from December 14 until December 23 with all 24 Nitelink Routes operating from 12.30am to 4.30am. On New Year's Eve all 24 routes will run until 4.30am.

The Luas weekend service has also been extended.

PAUL MELIA

[markpb]

It's funny how Dublin Bus, Luas and Bus Eireann all think there is a demand for a late night service. Or maybe (but less likely) they recognise the social value of such a service.

Just proves how rubbish Irish Rail are.

[Mark Gleeson]

What IE didn't say is the line from Dun Laoghaire to Bray is closed from 24:00 to 05:00 to facilate testing of trains

Passenger numbers are crap and to be honest the only reason I used it last year was since the 12:30 service was normal fares while Dublin Bus charged €4. The normal fares thing is thanks to the RPA since I argued it with the suburban office last year and they changed it on the website an hour later, http://www.platform11.org/successes/#latenight

Dublin Bus provide a service on nightlink that is very good and centrally located in the city and its fast and gets you closer to home in most cases, there was always the joke that certain routes got a better service at 3am than at 8am

I have travelled on late night DART every year the service has been provided and the passenger numbers on one train would be less than on a busy nightlink route, but the train carried 2 ticket checkers, 2 security and a driver all on overtime, Dublin bus its a rostered turn no overtime

Who fancies walking from Temple Bar to Pearse afterall you pass the nightlink stop on the way it can't work, Dublin Bus have cornered the market with a better product which has a 10+ year history

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Passenger numbers are crap and to be honest the only reason I used it last year was since the 12:30 service was normal fares while Dublin Bus charged €4

That's hardly an excuse. If every other transport provider (buses, trains, taxis, commuter buses) in the county can make an absolute killing over Christmas, there must be some reason why the Dart can't do the same. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it might be IR's fault.

Is it because no-one knows which years they run late night trains and which years they don't? Are the trains are infrequent? Do they bother hiring enough staff for the stations and trains?


Blaming passengers for not using a service is a very blinkered way of thinking that a lot of transport companies have. If the service is rubbish, people don't use it. But because people don't use it, they cancel the service and blame the passenger.

[Brian Condron]

Maybe there isn't a demand for special late night trains and they need the downtime over night for testing, maintenance etc. But 11:30pm is just too early for the last train, especially at Christmas but the whole year round it is a problem. Most regular pubs shut the bar at 11:30 monday to thursday, and if you leave then you miss the last DART home. I think the last Luas at 12:30 is perfect, it let's you finish up when the bar shuts, and not be rushed drinking the last pint and rushing for the door. Plenty of bar entertainment finishes at 11:30 too, anybody who goes to see the comedy in the International Bar know's that at 11:15 while the show is still going on people start to leave. Surely having the last DART at 12:30 would make more functional sense?

[Mark Hennessy]

Obviously a big problem is that most people have to walk past taxi-ranks and nite-link stops to get to the Dart station.
When the metro/interconnector are in place, it will make life easier for everyone to jump on in the city centre and transfer to their respective lines.

[Mark Gleeson]

The passengers use Dublin Bus since they have used it frequently in the past, it is faster for me to get home by bus than by train at 2am and its more frequent and its a lot safer walk from the bus stop than from the train station

Name any major nightspot in Dublin and you will almost certainly find the Nightlink bus stop is closer

I can see a market for a 12 and 12:30 train Thurday/Friday/Saturday year round but 2am nightlink rules and even it has seen a drop off in demand in the last few years. After a few pints all you want to do is get home and that extra 10 minutes around to Pearse is a killer

Its a bit like the WRC
Faster by bus
More convenient location
Bus is more accessible to most people
Bus is a profitable service

What we should be more worried about is getting a 23:30 to Maynooth which is a serious omission from the timetable

[Brian Condron]

Little known fact, Annual Commuter Taxsaver Bus tickets work on the Nitelink, the only non Nitelink tickets that do. I recon I saved my money from the annual ticket in Nitelink fares alone when I had that ticket last year.

[Mark Gleeson]

Same applies to Luas annual and Suburban annual tickets, valid on late night services if provided by Veiloa/IE

Handy

There comes a point where you have to admit that the rail solution is not the best given the situation

[Brian Condron]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

There comes a point where you have to admit that the rail solution is not the best given the situation

In this situation, where the locations of the stations plus the ease of access to the Nitelink, plus the lack of traffic that is very true. That said, I'd still walk past my nitelink stop on the way to the Green if the Luas was still running.

We are lucky to have the Nitelink service, no matter where you live in Dublin you can usually get a bus home at 2. When I lived in Manchester I presumed that there would be a similar service. The regular buses finished up at 11, and the tram at 11:30, and as I'd just missed the last tram one thursday night (due to a cancelled train from the airport but that's another story), I headed down to Picadilly Gardens to get the Manchester Nitelink. When I arrived the place was full of late buses, all of them going to the student area. There were about four different bus companies serving identical routes. The only bus going to Stretford was run on saturdays only. Is this a sign of deregulation that all the bus companies served the profitable route, but the quieter areas were not served at all.

[IHIR]

folks

be glad you actually HAVE transport, last bus in cork is still 11.15 and taxi fares are gone UP after the regulators recent change - transport in cork is appalling

[alek smart]

The Nitedart issue starkly underlines the sad fact that for all its Electricity the DART remains essentially as The Good Mr Dargan designed it.

19th Century Dublin still lives and flourishes in our Planners fertile groves.
One of my greatest problems with the recent DART upgrade programme was the lack of investment in the area`s surrounding the Stations.

For example it is only in the very recent past that Booterstown for example was permitted the luxury of Public Lighting betweeen the Station and the Rock Road.

Given the somewhat fraught nature of Irish Public Order and general crime and punishment relationship then very few people will see a long dark walk from a Railway Station in the wee small hours as a good return for their investment.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

It's Christmas 2020...

Ireland's public transport infrastructure has been radically transformed. The population of the Greater Dublin Area has soared to 2.5 Million. The Dublin Metro, Luas and DART rail plans have been sucessfully completed. Light rail systems are being built in Cork and Limerick. The 40 private bus routes operating in Dublin city are a major success. The 4 tracking to Navan is being funded. The 1,000s of workers employed by the RPA are putting the finishing touches to the Dublin-Cork highspeed line which is to open in 2 years time. The country is enjoying cheap nuclear electricity. Ireland has never been more wealthier, dynamic and have such a mobile and busy population.

The city centre of Dublin has been completely revitalised with nearly 1,000,000 people of all races and ethnic groups living within the central area keeping the city working as a 24 x 7 pulsating dynamic metropolis.

The new station at Stephen's Green, dispite opening delays caused by numerous NBRU stress strikes over Anto and Deco's fear of "monsters living in the tunnel", is now opened for Luas, Metro and Interconnector and has become the focal point for the city as people from all around the GDR use it in their thousands day and night.

PRESS RELEASE:

Irish Rail will not be running trains over the 2020/21 Christmas and New Year's holiday period after 9PM in the evening due there being no demand for passengers.

We would also like to point out that there are several luxury apartments still for sale at Phoenix Park Villas and our dedicatied sale offices will be opened on Christmas day at our 100 property sales rooms around the country.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by markpb

If the service is rubbish, people don't use it. But because people don't use it, they cancel the service and blame the passenger.

You have perfectly summed up the entire history of CIE in one sentence.

[alek smart]

Perhaps the London situation may be of interest to Mr FitzG......News Analysis: Vision for the future



Can other cities follow where London vision leads? Stewart Brown reports.

T2025 report describes London's bus network as "a big success story".


It's easy to dismiss long-term transport plans as pie in the sky. But before doing that with Transport 2025, a vision for the future produced by Transport for London and mayor Ken Livingstone, just consider how much has been achieved in the capital in the last six years.

And while the London experience does not carry over directly to the rest of Britain, it does show what can be done when you have clear political focus, strong leadership and - oh, yes - lots of money.

So while acknowledging that London is different, there are still lessons to be learned. And, like it or not, operators in other conurbations may soon be learning them as there seems to be a growing inevitability that we will see some form of franchising, even if only as a trial, in response to the alleged shortcomings of the deregulated bus market.

No one would ever accuse Livingstone of hiding his light under a bushel, but his claim that T2025 contains "the most comprehensive, robust and well-argued plans for London's transport network in the capital's history" is probably true. And if anyone can turn them into reality it is he, along with his transport commissioner Peter Hendy.

Says Hendy: "Expanding the bus network will be critical to support London's growth, achieve mode shift in outer London and complement the introduction of road user charging."


Expanding the capital's bus network will be
crucial to support London's growth, says
transport commissioner Peter Hendy.

Growth is one of the big issues facing London, and T2025 predicts that by 2016 – just 10 years away – there will be an additional 440,000 jobs and 530,000 extra people in London, generating up to two million extra journeys every day. "Bus is the only feasible and available option to support this growth," the report says, and it suggests that bus demand measured in passenger kilometres could increase by around 35 per cent by 2025. Bus boardings could increase by almost 50 per cent.

The high level of investment in London's bus fleet in recent years has focussed on accessibility and improved service frequencies, but there are environmental benefits too, and T2025 plans to build on this. It says: "Continually improving the bus fleet to be more environmentally efficient will also improve air quality and reduce noise pollution. TfL is at the forefront of implementing new technology for buses. Since March 2006, 59 per cent of buses comply with the Euro 3 standard and the first Euro 4 [models] have now been introduced, with nitrogen oxide (NOx) abatement technology fitted as standard."

It says that continuing investment will result in a more rapid transition to a low carbon fleet by utilising hybrid technology, which should deliver CO2 emission savings of up to 40 per cent per vehicle. There could be even greater emissions reductions if technological advances allow – such as the use of hydrogen as a fuel.

TfL considers differential pricing to discourage peak travel – something raised by Sir Rod Eddington in his transport review (see news, page 6) – but says that this would have only a marginal impact on demand unless unacceptably high increases were applied to peak fares. It also notes this would also affect many workers who had no choice but to travel in the peak, pointing out that those least able to pay would face a greater barrier to accessibility to services.

Reduced congestion is one of T2025's aims, and with it reduced CO2 emissions. To achieve this there needs to be more effective bus priorities to support increased capacity on bus services. The report notes: "More reliable and faster bus journey times can be achieved if congestion levels are reduced. This is essential to achieve mode shift from car travel at the lowest possible bus operational cost. If congestion continues to rise, bus costs will increase just to maintain current levels of service."

T2025 describes London's bus network as "a big success story" since 1999, achieving a patronage increase of 40 per cent, and four per cent modal shift from car. And while the shifts have been highest in central London, assisted by congestion charging and bus priority measures, there has also been modal shift in outer London despite the absence of pricing measures to influence car users.


London has seen modal shift from car to bus of four per cent
since 1999.

A key factor in providing extra capacity on the bus network will be the implementation of more bus priority measures. T2025 wants to see end-to-end priority provided over a substantial proportion of travel corridors to ensure continuing reliability in the face of increasing traffic congestion. It warns: "Effective bus priority will be needed to get more capacity for the same cost – through higher speeds and greater reliability."

Which all sounds good for London. So what are the lessons for city regions elsewhere in the UK?

One is that you need a vision, and someone with the force of personality to see it through. How many local politicians actually have vision – let alone the nerve to stay the course when the going gets tough?

And perhaps you also need a transport commissioner who can back up the political leadership, look at the whole picture, and help steer a course round partisan politics.

And you need a body which not only manages infrastructure investment, which the current PTA/PTE set up does very well in terms of funding bus and rail stations, but has highway responsibilities too and can ensure that bus priority measures are put in place regardless of the views of bickering local councils.

All of which, of course, sounds dangerously like setting up a recipe for transferring control of local bus services from operators to some other authority.

When you look at the London experience and at the grand vision of T2025 there comes an awareness that it may not be franchising as such which worries the bus industry, but franchising within the existing PTA/PTE framework where there is at times a high level of mistrust – running in both directions, it has to be said. Neither side is confident that the other will deliver on its promises.

Is that what makes London different? It's important not to lose sight of the billions of pounds spent on London's transport system, but there's more to it than just money. By and large, TfL and London's bus operators (who are the same groups as are serving most other conurbations) trust each other. They are working together, heading in the same direction.

If franchising is coming elsewhere in Britain, and if it is to work, it will need cool heads and common sense both from operators and franchising authorities. Can they rise to that challenge?






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[PaulM]

The London bus network is excellent though. Most of my friends in London use the bus rather than the tube.

I do think there are far more busses needed in Dublin. I just wish the bickering would stop. Private or DB, if there are more buses, well and good.

[Mark Gleeson]

With respect to the thread London relies on bus for its late night public transit requirements.

The real issue at hand is the gap from 10pm when things start to shutdown. Really should be looking for last train to Kildare/Drogheda at 23:30 and DART/Maynooth 23:30 except weekends ie Thursday/Friday/Sat till 00:30

That would in my opinion by a lot more useful than a service at 2am which has its own problems given nightlink competition

[James Shields]

London are also getting free public transport and 24 hour tubes for new year's day.

It's about time we realised that sometimes it's more important to get people home safely than to screw the public for every ounce of profit.

[packetswitch]

Just a coda on this thread; giving praise where praise is due. The 'night Luas' picks up on the inbound journey as well as the outbound - as many of you will know, the Nightlinks only pick up on outbound trips. I was out with friends outside the city last night (NYE) but wanted to travel back to home (TCD). I had no problem getting the advertised Stephens Green-bound tram in the early hours.

While the numbers aren't great, and some stops would potentially have safety issues if you were waiting alone (I was at a quiet but 'good' stop), it certainly comes across to passengers as helpful. I know it's more difficult for buses, and there is a time advantage to sending the Nightlinks flying back in in order to get back to the city centre for the next run ASAP, but given that for many people (me included!) the impossibility of getting a city-bound bus after 1130 is a point of some annoyance, the little bit of effort made by RPA/Veolia on this matter is appreciated. There are an awful lot of people living in Dublins 1/2 who are pretty much stuck with taxis if they dare to socialise anywhere outside the centre.

[alek smart]

Pktswitch raises a very valid point here.
Nitelink as a concept has served Dublin well.

It must be remembered that it came about at a time when the City Centre faced a very real Public Transport emergency due to the sudden desire of large numbers of people to socialize after the usual 23.30 closing time.

From memory I seem to recall some very unsavoury incidents in the City Centre area including at least one murder,which at the time was atributed at least in part to the presence of large numbers of "Tired and Emotional" people suddenly released onto the streets with NO Public Transport available to get them out of the City Centre.

Remember this was in an era which saw a Taxi fleet of some 1,600 vehicles TOTAL with perhaps less than 50% of those willing (or Able) to undertake the late-night week-end work.

In the intervening years the City has changed out of all recognition and at a pace which has left it`s planners doing Goldfish impersonations behind the Civic Office panoramic windows,not to mention the more genteel facade of 59 Upr O Connell St (HQ of Dublin Bus).

Dublin Bus has for sometime now ocasionally thrown out the concept of running some routes on a 24 hr basis.
Indeed as part of the last major Busdrivers wage deal a committement was secured from the Trades Unions which allowed all newly recruited staff to be rostered on a 24 hour basis to operate the new schedules.

However the necessary preparations never came to fruition and Nitelink continued as the preferred offering from DB.
The commissioning of Luas however has totally altered the situation and IMO Dublin Bus were caught way off balance with No plan in place to allow Nitelink to switch over into a FULL 24 hr Hourly service in BOTH directions.

Services such as the 44N 48N 77N should have been dropped and the resultant available resources diverted to 24 hr servicing of the areas which do not have a Luas penetration.

Dublin Bus itself had its own vision of what to do and proposed discontinuing ALL Mon to Wed Nitelink Services with only a reduced service operating on the remainder of the week.

From a purely fiscal perspective this was simply good management and was only averted by some,by now usual,political phone-calling.

Some Political figures had made their name on portraying Dublin as a good-time 24hr Cosmopolitan place.
To have the City`s Bus Company pulling services due to lack of patronage was sending out all the "wrong" signals an so the Company was prevailed upon to reconsider.

So once again and not for the first or last time,Dublin Bus is caught immobile in the fast approaching headlights.
There are few Industrial Relations or Human Resource issues and the necessary vehicles are already in place.
The only restraints are a natural corporate inertia coupled with a Dept of Transport which would have a hissy fit at being presented with such a vulgarian concept as DB gaining a "Commercial Advantage" by offering a 24hr Bus Service package to its passengers.

What is particularly frustrating about this issue is the way it has been allowed to develop and worsen until "Fire-Brigade" management principles are the only response,which usually entails service cuts.

The provision of a 24hr full service on the main corridors could be a very positive demonstration to its own motto of "Serving ALL of the Community"..???