ESRI advocates Bus based alternatives to rail investment

Ronald Binge · 24-10-2006, 14:19

From the Irish Times today:

Quote:

Bus based alternatives are available in all cases, and will often offer higher frequency than train-based schemes for the same overall volume, better ability to penetrate target markets, as well as lower capital and operating costs

It's like DART, Suburban Rail and Luas never happened...

Oisin88 · 24-10-2006, 17:12

Am I allowed use the word "****e" here?

Do these people forget what happened last century when they turned the existing railways and tramways into buses?

Mark · 24-10-2006, 18:36

Do they realise that we NEED all the investment because we are actually playing catch up infrastructure wise now? Did they spend the last 20 years silent while we didnt invest anything?

Dave · 24-10-2006, 19:28

Can anyone tell me why economists fail to see the non monetary benefits of rail based public transport? Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."

Mark Gleeson · 24-10-2006, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."

Sean Barrett lectures it only to commute by rail himself

Oisin88 · 24-10-2006, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Sean Barrett lectures it only to commute by rail himself

He must want to keep the train all for himself.

I'd like to know his exact thoughts on a morning which he has to take the bus in.

houstyl · 24-10-2006, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Can anyone tell me why economists fail to see the non monetary benefits of rail based public transport? Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."

To be fair to Barrett (as an ex-student of his) he does acknowledge the non-monetary benefits of railways, he just doesn't see them outweighing the monetary costs by and large in an Irish context, which I wouldn't be inclined to agree with mind. The lack of decent CBA in the Irish transport context doesn't help with dispelling this notion

Derek Wheeler · 25-10-2006, 00:09

Look at it this way.

If we built dedicated busways as opposed to Luas and invested the balance in fast forwarding the much needed improvements to the existing rail system, would we be better off?

In all fairness, the red and green lines could operate just as effectively with a dedicated busway considering the advancements in "bus" technology.

To play devils advocate some more, whats wrong with considering tunnel technology for dedicated busways aswell?

houstyl · 25-10-2006, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

To play devils advocate some more, whats wrong with considering tunnel technology for dedicated busways aswell?

Works reasonably well with Boston's Silver Line which was built as a cheap alternative to a full-blown new metro line. Where that service falls down though is when it is forced to share with on-street traffic. In an Irish context I couldn't see the dedicated busway being accepted - the culture has always favoured the Dublin Bus model with stops every 50 metres. People accept LUAS and DART stops being hundreds of metres apart but not so with buses.

Donal Quinn · 25-10-2006, 10:06

dissappointing from ESRI

surely one of the biggest benefits of rail(and the bit that does to for me) it its 1) expandability and 2)Predictability

1) without building more track the capacity of any rail system can be enhanced through signalling, longer trains and different rolling stock - has the ESRI seen o'connell st at rush hour? where exactly would the extra busses go?

2) even with bus lanes the variation in how long a bus will take to get from a to b is amazing. two examples - phibsboro to baggot st, from 12 - 45 mins - dublin to galway - 3 - 5 hrs. this is not an issue with trains. and don't get me started on dwell times

surely these issues have to be factored into economic costs...

also on the issue of operating costs
1400 people on a single dart - 1 dart driver
1400 people on 15 buses - 15 bus drivers clogging up the roads

Mark Gleeson · 25-10-2006, 10:20

If you actually read the ERSI document it no way as bad as you might think its more or less

Confirm transport projects worth while if so give them high priority

If anyone has done the math will know bus is a useless solution as a primary transport system in a heavily congested city

Problem is everyone seems to have gone all negative despite the fact the information to prove the projects are worth it is in the public domain

Metro has a positive CBA, we know the interconnector combined with other works has a rate of return in the 10-12% window

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24-10-2006, 17:12	#2
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	Am I allowed use the word "****e" here? Do these people forget what happened last century when they turned the existing railways and tramways into buses?

24-10-2006, 18:36	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern line Posts: 1,311	Do they realise that we NEED all the investment because we are actually playing catch up infrastructure wise now? Did they spend the last 20 years silent while we didnt invest anything?

24-10-2006, 19:28	#4
Dave Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 141	Can anyone tell me why economists fail to see the non monetary benefits of rail based public transport? Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."

25-10-2006, 00:09	#8
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Look at it this way. If we built dedicated busways as opposed to Luas and invested the balance in fast forwarding the much needed improvements to the existing rail system, would we be better off? In all fairness, the red and green lines could operate just as effectively with a dedicated busway considering the advancements in "bus" technology. To play devils advocate some more, whats wrong with considering tunnel technology for dedicated busways aswell?

25-10-2006, 10:06	#10
Donal Quinn Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 267	dissappointing from ESRI surely one of the biggest benefits of rail(and the bit that does to for me) it its 1) expandability and 2)Predictability 1) without building more track the capacity of any rail system can be enhanced through signalling, longer trains and different rolling stock - has the ESRI seen o'connell st at rush hour? where exactly would the extra busses go? 2) even with bus lanes the variation in how long a bus will take to get from a to b is amazing. two examples - phibsboro to baggot st, from 12 - 45 mins - dublin to galway - 3 - 5 hrs. this is not an issue with trains. and don't get me started on dwell times surely these issues have to be factored into economic costs... also on the issue of operating costs 1400 people on a single dart - 1 dart driver 1400 people on 15 buses - 15 bus drivers clogging up the roads

25-10-2006, 10:20	#11
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	If you actually read the ERSI document it no way as bad as you might think its more or less Confirm transport projects worth while if so give them high priority If anyone has done the math will know bus is a useless solution as a primary transport system in a heavily congested city Problem is everyone seems to have gone all negative despite the fact the information to prove the projects are worth it is in the public domain Metro has a positive CBA, we know the interconnector combined with other works has a rate of return in the 10-12% window