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#1 | |
Technical Officer
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![]() Quote:
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-2635349.html
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Unhappy with new timetable - let us know Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 03-05-2011 at 08:40. |
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#2 |
Chairman/Publicity
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Home of Hurling
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![]() this was coming since in one of his replies to PQ's in the Dail, Minister Varadkar mentioned a DART to the Airport in passing. Its the little things you have to look out for.
interesting line - "there would be no need to buy extra trains" - hopefully this is in the context of DART2 and DART Underground and not otherwise. This crosses Metro North off Varadkars beauty contest, still leaves DART Underground fighting Luas interconnecter. |
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#3 |
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Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
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![]() No reason why this can't be extended to Swords and perhaps even onto Ashbourne in the longer term.
Swords and the airport were always the big selling points for Metro North. The case for Ballymun and DCU was no better than the case for many other rail projects and probably couldn't have justified the extra money. I suppose the question becomes about the capacity of the Northern Line and it may be necessary to rexamine the idea of Howth-Howth Junction being a connection rather than a direct destination as a consequence. |
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#4 | |
Technical Officer
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![]() The no new trains is simply achieved by killing the direct Howth service and heavily cutting back on Malahide and using the surplus in the current fleet. Clearly that is not acceptable as Malahide can fill an 8 coach DART to standing several times an hour
It is not a runner unless 4 tracks are provided across the northside and indeed the interconnector tunnel is in place also. In time terms the 748 bus can make it from Dublin Airport to Connolly station in under 25 minutes, best the DART could do (without 4 tracks) is 27-30 minutes, with 4 tracks 18 minutes. Irish Rail's plans clearly indicate non stop Connolly Airport with 4 tracks The assessment (2004/5 ish) quoted 350-450 million depending on over or underground approach to Dublin airport, but an annual carrying of 4.6-5.4 million i.e 13-15k a day not 10k. On the positive side it would on its own make enough to bank roll the entire Dublin commuter network About 2 months back RUI made a submission to the NTA with respect to the 2030 vision document, based on meetings with people on the Northern Irish side with respect to Belfast and the new EU transport policy and knowing Irish Rail has been told that 4 tracks can't be done from Rahney to Howth Junction, we proposed an alternative loosely phrased as Interconnector phase 2 Quote:
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#5 |
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![]() As a proposal, it's pretty good, but presumably it would cost quite an amount of money and take some time.
In the shorter term, are there many stations that could be quad tracked through the stations to allow InterCity and Commuter trains to pass DARTs? I would imagine Clontarf Rd and Howth Junction. Also, possibly Raheny and Kilbarrack if you moved them from their current location? I haven't travelled through Clongriffen since it opened. I assume it was only built with 2 lines through? Last edited by comcor : 03-05-2011 at 13:49. Reason: Said Harmonstown when I meant Clongriffen |
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#6 |
Technical Officer
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![]() Irish Rail's reports favour 2 tracks on western side. 3 tracks possible within existing boundary. 4 tracks would require land acquisition. Every station and bridge would need to be rebuilt
The problem is Rahney to North of Howth Junction, there was no way to reasonably fit 4 tracks, only 3. Now the proposals suggested grade separation at Howth Junction. The Airport spur would be grade separated and merge just north of Clongriffen which is built with 4 platform already The scale of disruption required would be immense and that is a serious concern Should be noted the DART, 29000, ICR and Mk4 fleets are all designed to cat B fire standards and can operate in long tunnels. All you have to worry about is ventilation. Cost wise to get 4 tracks in to Clongriffen would be 600+ million, add 400 million to get to the Airport and some extra trains say 100 million you are already 1.1 billion down, add in 4 tracks to Donabate could be another 400 million. But your airport spur is 8km the wrong way so a very slow route if you want to do Ballbriggan Airport Dublin its out as is Dublin Belfast via Airport as it adds 16km to the journey Our tunnel option plus the loop back towards Rush and Lusk would be ballpark 2 billion, but its direct and avoids the need to grade separate Howth Junction, dig up Killester Donabate, avoids Malahide Esturary and provides a new service from north of the Airport. Best of all in distance terms its 2-3km extra at most but without the curves or traffic of the existing route so you can fly along at full speed. All Ballbriggan/Drogheda/Dundalk/Belfast would divert via tunnel. DART from Rush and Lusk on existing route. P&R and interchange at Rush and Lusk Ignoring the complexities in isolation the spur doesn't work you need 4 track and interconnector and if you are going to go that far you might as well get the full package
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#7 |
Member
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![]() Has anyone got access to ies initial plans for the DART dating back to 1991?
is it available online? |
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#8 |
Member
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![]() What about revisiting the maynooth line option? The spur would have been just after phoenix park?
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#9 |
Technical Officer
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![]() File and materials in Members area ------>
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#10 |
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![]() If I remember rightly, the original spur was to be have been though the Pelletstown/Royal Canal Park development, then would of looping round Finglas/Ballymun before heading to the Airport..
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#11 |
Really Really Regluar Poster
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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![]() What about terminal capacity at Connolly?
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#12 |
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![]() Presumably, this would be in association with the Interconnector, so the trains would use it to get to Heuston and beyond.
Having a single connection from Heuston to the Airport is IMO a positive move. There may have to be some thought given to how to connect the Sligo and Belfast lines though (Rosslare could connect at Pearse or possibly even have direct services). I guess Sligo trains could run through to Pearse (or it could make an argument for Rosslare-Sligo direct. Dundalk and Drogheda passengers could connect at Howth Junction. It would be questionable whether the numbers on services from the North could justify stopping Belfast InterCities there. |
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#13 |
Really Really Regluar Poster
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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![]() Has anyone costed an express route from Donabate to Drogheda for Enterprise/express suburban/Tara to avoid 4-tracking Donabate-Balbriggan? The right time for this was during M1 land take but we couldn't have road and rail sharing infrastructure...
![]() I'm a bit concerned about the Clontarf GC-M50 route - property values are depressed enough so I imagine the locals won't be thrilled at the possibility of a TBM putting cracks in their foundations, given the lack of a nearby arterial to run under. @comcor - if BXD happens Interconnector is dead, and the article above makes no reference to Heuston. |
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#14 |
Member
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![]() But seriously, if the RUI suggestion is taken on board, is all the design work for Metro North redundant? How long would it take then to design the new tunnel and then enquiries and EIS documents, just like the whole process for the Dart Underground.. what 10 years wasted with Metro North? Unbelievable, what a country
If Metro North is cancelled, will it be replaced like you suggested with buses via the Port Tunnel.. a good compromise if the Dart Underground project is prioritised? |
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#15 |
Technical Officer
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![]() The proposal is not a replacement for metro north but a next step after interconnector to address the Northern line issue and the submission identifies MN and IC as being priorities for completion before this. Cost and planning wise it would take some years but ideally that work would be done when interconnector was being built. Thats why it was sent in under the 2030 vision its clearly not a runner in the current situation. Remember only 25% of metro north business is Dublin Airport so its not a replacement there is a need for some form of north south link
There would be a huge amount of reusability in design and equipment terms as you would reuse the TBM and general station design already paid for elsewhere The professional view on the DART spur is its a not a runner on its own. The general view on DART to airport is to lash down a tunnel from the city to the airport. Until now no one has actually put a pen to paper and to propose and reason out a route. We simply picked Killester on the basis of space available and it would allow a multitude of options as in Connolly or IC and it avoids going under the Port Tunnel as well
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#16 |
Local Liaison Officer
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![]() MN would still serve all the stations from St. Stephen's to Ballymun - that is lots of people who currently don't have a rail service.
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#17 | |
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![]() Quote:
For one thing, the Sligo line already serves a good portion of the area. Also, the population would be lower than on a line that ran from Kent Station through Cork City Centre onto UCC (13,000 students) and CIT (17,000 students) to Ballincollig, but that's not even being considered for a tramway. The line only makes sense if it connects up Dublin Airport and Swords, but if there's a cheaper way of doing that. |
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#18 | ||
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#19 |
Really Regular Poster
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![]() Greater Cork area has a population of 190,000 according to the CSO (and I'm not sure if that figire includes Ballincollig, but we'll say for argument that it does).
My point is that if you take out Swords and the airport, the population along a line that has a route like that is greater (as is the number of students at third level institutions) than the route between Glasnevin and Ballymun. From Drumcondra south, there is the Sligo line, the LUAS and no great walk to get to the DART. Swords and the airport get a service under the alternative proposals anyway. BTW I'm not claiming that a line along that route should be built in Cork, just using it to illustrate that possibly the argument for it in terms of transport on the northside of Dublin isn't as financially strong as some may believe. |
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#20 |
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![]() If I remember right, one of the earlier reports (about 2000) proposed a railway from Broombridge to the airport, using the free space in the middle of Finglas. This could then continue to Swords. The same report also proposed a tramline via Drumcondra and Ballymun, to link up with this line.
If the aim is to serve the airport as cheaply as possible using branches off the existing lines, this is probably better than a line from Clongriffin. It's not ideal, of course. Because of capacity problems, the trains would probably have to go from Docklands. The junction at Broombridge would be quite complicated. Of course, I'm still backing Metro North, and I only mention this because if it's a case of "back to the drawing board", this line is an option. It's strange how changeable public opinion is. In 1994, when the Luas was first proposed, a line to Ballymun was mentioned. No one particularly thought about the airport. Nowadays many people's only concern is about linking the airport - never mind if the other suburbs aren't served! People ask me why they need to go to the expense of tunnelling under north Dublin, when they could easily build a spur from Clongriffin. I reply that it is part of a plan to provide rail or tram links to as many suburbs as possible, not just to link the airport with the city centre. By the way, I'd have no problem with a tram link from Cork to Ballincollig. |
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