More PD/FF Bickering over the busses

colmoc · 12-09-2006, 08:46

Quote:

First blood will be drawn in the row over buses

THE first major flashpoint between the new PD leader Michael McDowell and Fianna Fail is set to come over reform of the bus market.
The long-running bus saga presents an ideal chance for the Progressive Democrats' new leader to assert his authority.
The PDs want to see substantial privatisation and competition on bus routes but Fianna Fail is less enthusiastic about this approach.
Transport Minister Martin Cullen is due to bring proposals for the provision of extra buses and the reform of the market in the coming weeks.
But these plans will be a watering down of a previous Government policy.
When Seamus Brennan was Transport Minister, he brought forward proposals to open up 25pc of routes to competition and this plan was agreed to by both FF and the PDs. But since Mr Cullen took over, these proposed reforms have not gone any further.
The compromise is expected to be the introduction of an independent regulator for the market.
Yesterday, Mr McDowell reiterated the PDs' commitment to its promise on reforms of the bus market.
"The Progressive Democrats strongly support the clear statement in the Programme for Government that there will be reform of the road transport service. We are determined that State-owned enterprises and private enterprise will have a role to play in delivering that vital service to the Irish people," he said.
"These matters will come before Government and I have no doubt it remains the Government's commitment to deliver on what's in the Programme for Government."
Priority
The reform of the bus market was a key priority in the PDs manifesto in the 2002 general election and it was also included in the Programme for Government with Fianna Fail.
Mary Harney threatened to pull her party out of Government with Fianna Fail two and a half years ago if the coalition failed to liberalise bus routes.
Fionnan Sheahan and Gene McKenna

www.unison.ie

Colm Donoghue · 12-09-2006, 09:00

Why don't the PD's try get Cork's bus system reformed.
By all accounts (stories here/boards.ie/Relations in Cork/Living there for half a year) the service is desperately bad.
PD's aren't gonna loose any seats by stiring it up there.

Maybe ALeK is closer to the point than I thought and there is shennanigans with the pd's

(edited to spell closer properly)

al2637 · 12-09-2006, 10:28

Why not just set up the DTA ASAP and have it subcontract the running of bus services to the various companies????

Wouldn't this keep everyone happy? (apart from DB)

alek smart · 12-09-2006, 12:47

One of the less apparent results from embracing the PD Public Transport policy will be a VERY substantial increase in fare levels.

This increase will be swift (a la Electricity/Gas) and will contribute immediately to a serious shift in our Inflation baseline.

As an example we can take the London Model,which appears to be finding much favour amongst PD`ite political people at the moment.
Transport for London (TfL) has just announced its 2007 tarriff structure and boy are the pigeons flocking home to roost.
On Bus Cash Fare up from £1.50 to £2.00.
Travelcards up by Retail Price Index + 2% ( A new Wheeze This)
Oystercard offpeak cash bus fare up from 80p to £1.00 (A REAL surprise here)

NB: NOTE FIGURES IN STERLING !!

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...releaseid=9169

Even Londons top Transport Tsar (A real one too) TfL`s Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy has continually warned other cities AGAINST attempting to emulate London`s success UNLESS they were prepared to fully fund any such system.

Let there be NO doubt but that in This Republic our administrators are NOT prepared to come anywhere near funding such innovation.

Now lets see....when IS that oul election...?

al2637 · 12-09-2006, 14:48

In fairness, the only Oyster fare to go up was the off-peak bus fare.

Peter Hendy was on the news last night explaining the increase was to encourage people to use Oyster (not something I totally agtee with).

Cash Tube fares are rising 33% from £3 to £4 :-o. The Oyster fare is not increasing.

I don't see why exactly fares would need to go up here tho... If the government subvention didn't decrease surley the worst that could happen would be for DB to bid for all existing services at the existing amount? Best case scenario would be other operators being able to offer cheaper services and thus saving DTA money!

Seems simple to me, or have I got something very wrong?

MrX · 14-09-2006, 09:15

The reality of the Cork Bus "Service" is that it basically doesn't function as a public transport system at all. It's so inadequate that areas like Carriagaline, have some of the highest levels of car-based commuting in Western Europe.

Douglas to the City Centre took me 2 hours this morning due to endless traffic, it's getting progressively far worse as the Rochestown area gets more heavily developed.

That's 2 hours to cover about 4 KM btw!!

None of Rochestown is served by regular bus services, despite its proximity to the city centre and its population. It's still treated as a "country route" as it was in 1950.

I would without any hesitation say that Cork has the worst public transport I have ever experienced in any city. It's just dire.

It's also been so bad for so long that I don't think people even notice anymore.

Colm Donoghue · 14-09-2006, 09:26

That's my point.
If the pd's really wanted to make public transport beter and show how much better private vs cie is, start in Cork. Cos it'd be hard to be worse.

If it's only about the money, then cork's a small fish and fart around in Dublin.

comcor · 14-09-2006, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX

Douglas to the City Centre took me 2 hours this morning due to endless traffic, it's getting progressively far worse as the Rochestown area gets more heavily developed.

Douglas to South Mall is only a 40 minute walk.

Perhaps an umbrella is a better investment than a car...

AZ1 · 14-09-2006, 14:28

Does anyone out there know actually the policies of FF, PD, FG and Labour on urban mass transit in Ireland? Could same be summarized somewhere so we could be aware of what these guys (officially) think? The fact that none are professional planners is a no-brainer. But it wold be helpful to have something on just for the record. Not only for the sake of this thread. Ciao.

MrX · 15-09-2006, 12:17

It's not a 40 min walk to Rochestown! It's well over an hour!

You can't really suggest that CIE shouldn't serve any destinations that are less than a 40 min brisk walk from the city centre. Although, I can see this being a great new policy!

At that rate, you might as well forget busses to Ranalagh, Drumcondra, UCD (sure it's only a short amble really).. and so on.

Having urban transport issues decided by a national government which is focused primarily on two things 1) Central Dublin (the bits near Leinster House mostly) and 2) Farmers & horse racing leaves the non Dublin urban areas in a dire state of under investment most of the time.

We really need more powerful local government and particularly powerful and accountable city authorities. It's about time we'd exec. mayors!

comcor · 15-09-2006, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX

It's not a 40 min walk to Rochestown! It's well over an hour!

You can't really suggest that CIE shouldn't serve any destinations that are less than a 40 min brisk walk from the city centre. Although, I can see this being a great new policy!

But Rochestown doesn't get buses anyway...

And the suggestion was entirely humorous.

AZ1 · 15-09-2006, 13:23

Backtracking to the title of this thread (and away from buses in Cork):
is anyone out there able to provide a short policy statement of what FF, FG, PD and Labour officially think about or propose to do about urban transport in Ireland (inclusive of Cork) ?
These are the Parties who, in less than a year, will be looking for the votes public transport users. It would be great to know what their official policies are on public transport prior to that knock on the door.
With a policy statement at hand, transport users can address the issues posed (or avoided) by each single Party. And help vote for the Party that seems most interested in the "cause".
No small matter, given that Ireland has ths political system the country is stuck with, often geared more to farmers' interests (as was mentioned) than how do we efficiently move a million people to work/school in the morning?

alek smart · 15-09-2006, 19:34

Bullseye !!!!!

Thats Irish Public Transport policy in a nutshell....Based almost totally around servicing 2 tightly defined and basically artifical "Peaks" which essentially are only experienced for 6 months per year.

Until and unless we can force a MAJOR broadening of the Official Realization of what constitutes Public Transport then we are whistling in the wind !!

12-09-2006, 09:00	#2
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	Cork's busses Why don't the PD's try get Cork's bus system reformed. By all accounts (stories here/boards.ie/Relations in Cork/Living there for half a year) the service is desperately bad. PD's aren't gonna loose any seats by stiring it up there. Maybe ALeK is closer to the point than I thought and there is shennanigans with the pd's (edited to spell closer properly) Last edited by Colm Donoghue : 12-09-2006 at 12:48.

14-09-2006, 09:15	#6
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	On the Cork Bus "Service" The reality of the Cork Bus "Service" is that it basically doesn't function as a public transport system at all. It's so inadequate that areas like Carriagaline, have some of the highest levels of car-based commuting in Western Europe. Douglas to the City Centre took me 2 hours this morning due to endless traffic, it's getting progressively far worse as the Rochestown area gets more heavily developed. That's 2 hours to cover about 4 KM btw!! None of Rochestown is served by regular bus services, despite its proximity to the city centre and its population. It's still treated as a "country route" as it was in 1950. I would without any hesitation say that Cork has the worst public transport I have ever experienced in any city. It's just dire. It's also been so bad for so long that I don't think people even notice anymore.

15-09-2006, 12:17	#10
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	It's not a 40 min walk to Rochestown! It's well over an hour! You can't really suggest that CIE shouldn't serve any destinations that are less than a 40 min brisk walk from the city centre. Although, I can see this being a great new policy! At that rate, you might as well forget busses to Ranalagh, Drumcondra, UCD (sure it's only a short amble really).. and so on. Having urban transport issues decided by a national government which is focused primarily on two things 1) Central Dublin (the bits near Leinster House mostly) and 2) Farmers & horse racing leaves the non Dublin urban areas in a dire state of under investment most of the time. We really need more powerful local government and particularly powerful and accountable city authorities. It's about time we'd exec. mayors! Last edited by MrX : 15-09-2006 at 12:21.

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12-09-2006, 10:28	#3
al2637 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 191	Why not just set up the DTA ASAP and have it subcontract the running of bus services to the various companies???? Wouldn't this keep everyone happy? (apart from DB)

12-09-2006, 12:47	#4
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	One of the less apparent results from embracing the PD Public Transport policy will be a VERY substantial increase in fare levels. This increase will be swift (a la Electricity/Gas) and will contribute immediately to a serious shift in our Inflation baseline. As an example we can take the London Model,which appears to be finding much favour amongst PD`ite political people at the moment. Transport for London (TfL) has just announced its 2007 tarriff structure and boy are the pigeons flocking home to roost. On Bus Cash Fare up from £1.50 to £2.00. Travelcards up by Retail Price Index + 2% ( A new Wheeze This) Oystercard offpeak cash bus fare up from 80p to £1.00 (A REAL surprise here) NB: NOTE FIGURES IN STERLING !! http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...releaseid=9169 Even Londons top Transport Tsar (A real one too) TfL`s Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy has continually warned other cities AGAINST attempting to emulate London`s success UNLESS they were prepared to fully fund any such system. Let there be NO doubt but that in This Republic our administrators are NOT prepared to come anywhere near funding such innovation. Now lets see....when IS that oul election...?

12-09-2006, 14:48	#5
al2637 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 191	In fairness, the only Oyster fare to go up was the off-peak bus fare. Peter Hendy was on the news last night explaining the increase was to encourage people to use Oyster (not something I totally agtee with). Cash Tube fares are rising 33% from £3 to £4 :-o. The Oyster fare is not increasing. I don't see why exactly fares would need to go up here tho... If the government subvention didn't decrease surley the worst that could happen would be for DB to bid for all existing services at the existing amount? Best case scenario would be other operators being able to offer cheaper services and thus saving DTA money! Seems simple to me, or have I got something very wrong?

14-09-2006, 09:26	#7
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	That's my point. If the pd's really wanted to make public transport beter and show how much better private vs cie is, start in Cork. Cos it'd be hard to be worse. If it's only about the money, then cork's a small fish and fart around in Dublin.

14-09-2006, 14:28	#9
AZ1 Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 31	Does anyone out there know actually the policies of FF, PD, FG and Labour on urban mass transit in Ireland? Could same be summarized somewhere so we could be aware of what these guys (officially) think? The fact that none are professional planners is a no-brainer. But it wold be helpful to have something on just for the record. Not only for the sake of this thread. Ciao.

15-09-2006, 13:23	#12
AZ1 Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 31	Backtracking to the title of this thread (and away from buses in Cork): is anyone out there able to provide a short policy statement of what FF, FG, PD and Labour officially think about or propose to do about urban transport in Ireland (inclusive of Cork) ? These are the Parties who, in less than a year, will be looking for the votes public transport users. It would be great to know what their official policies are on public transport prior to that knock on the door. With a policy statement at hand, transport users can address the issues posed (or avoided) by each single Party. And help vote for the Party that seems most interested in the "cause". No small matter, given that Ireland has ths political system the country is stuck with, often geared more to farmers' interests (as was mentioned) than how do we efficiently move a million people to work/school in the morning?

15-09-2006, 19:34	#13
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Bullseye !!!!! Thats Irish Public Transport policy in a nutshell....Based almost totally around servicing 2 tightly defined and basically artifical "Peaks" which essentially are only experienced for 6 months per year. Until and unless we can force a MAJOR broadening of the Official Realization of what constitutes Public Transport then we are whistling in the wind !!