Luas Strike Dates Announced

[James Howard]

So far all they are succeeding in doing is presenting a very strong case for Irish Rail drivers being overpaid. I do agree with their point that their job is pretty equivalent to that of a train driver.

Their pay-scale in very similar to that of a teacher, yet the teacher will need to have three or four years in a degree and a year of HDip before the can even enter that salary scale. Few teachers entering the profession since 2008 will have even progressed into the salary scale as they are most likely in temporary positions.

The first 9 years of the Garda pay scale is also very similar.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

So far all they are succeeding in doing is presenting a very strong case for Irish Rail drivers being overpaid. I do agree with their point that their job is pretty equivalent to that of a train driver.

Their pay-scale in very similar to that of a teacher, yet the teacher will need to have three or four years in a degree and a year of HDip before the can even enter that salary scale. Few teachers entering the profession since 2008 will have even progressed into the salary scale as they are most likely in temporary positions.

The first 9 years of the Garda pay scale is also very similar.

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

[James Howard]

Swings and roundabouts - each job has its different stresses, responsibilities and difficulties.

Driving a tram up Abbey Street can hardly be a terribly relaxing experience. You're inches away from crowds of idiots any one of whom is likely to step out in front of you on a second's notice.

On an annual basis the Luas system have more collisions with cars than they have trams.

[Jamie2k9]

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

We are in agreement about why IE should be paid more however this above is not any justification by any means.

a - You are showing a danger signal on approach to a station, all drivers know fully when to commence braking stopping day or night. I even know when drivers commence braking on Waterford line for example and most drivers have been traveling as long if not longer than me on the route.

b - Driver will be aware of TSR's prior to journey and they are signposted well in advance

Emergencies all types are a prime example of why IE should be paid more, in many cases IE drivers have a lot more responsibility and are on their own for much longer than a Luas driver would be. Example compare evacuating a Luas is simple and does not need a driver but a train would.

[Mark Gleeson]

Under EU law driving a train now requires a licence and a training program, drivers are now issued with a formal certificate which is issued in conjunction with an education body, e.g city of guilds. 18 months training

To drive a Luas you need a clean drivers licence for a commercial vehicle, training is a matter of weeks. Driving a tram in Dublin is pretty easy compared to somewhere like Amsterdam

Its fun to watch Luas drivers looking for Irish Rail pay levels, I'm sure they were are not willing to accept the longer hours, fewer days off and fewer benefits, no bonus.

Transdev contract is fixed, the only variable in the contract is the consumer price index, and that's what is being offered as an increase

[James Howard]

I kind of see the point - driving an Intercity train at least is more involved than driving a tram. But then to take it back to my other comparison, it is hard to see how a semi-skilled vehicle operator should be expecting 50% more pay than a teacher of the same experience level when that teacher has spent 4 years and tens of thousands of euro acquiring the skills to do that job.

It was a bit of a poor show at the Connolly Luas stop this morning. Aside from the departures information sign being blank, there was no sign of a strike - you'd think they could at least but a service cancelled notice on the info sign or if that was beyond the limits of their technology, a sign posted to the ticket machines. The ticket machines were operational and appeared to be open for selling tickets. I didn't look any closer than verify that the normal home screen was displayed though.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

a - You are showing a danger signal on approach to a station, all drivers know fully when to commence braking stopping day or night. I even know when drivers commence braking on Waterford line for example and most drivers have been traveling as long if not longer than me on the route.

a - nope. At least not on twin tracks. If the line is clear, the signals are set to green long before the train arrives. It is up to the driver to stop and to know when to start slowing. This may also apply on single tracks provided a passing is not required or a change of track.
North bound trains into Kildare are given advance double-yellow/yellow as the up platform is in loop and they must slow before entering the loop.

[Jamie2k9]

On many single lines regardless of crossing another service, double orange will be shown as it is uncommon for the signalling system to be able to clear that far ahead and its demonstrated when running non stop services.

As twin lines, yes signilling system can clear miles ahead however in my experience Orange is shown often.

The automatic pa on thr 22s is based close on distance from stations and it would be unusual to see a driver not braking within 30 seconds after the announcement. Im sure they can see distance like passengers. Route knowledge also helps.

Its still tit for tat as Luas drivers have the same judgment particuarly on sections outside city centre.

[ACustomer]

In an earlier post I mentioned Dublin Bus drivers as a possible comparator group for Luas drivers.

Mark has told us that a clean commercial vehicle licence is a requirement for Luas drivers, which makes the Bus driver comparison more relevant. Now what is the pay is a Dublin Bus driver? I wonder if any of the useless hacks who pretend to be Industrial Relations correspondents would do a little research instead of re-hashing old material (as in the front page report in to-day's Irish Times).

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

I think there is an arguable case that driving a LUAS is at least as demanding as driving a DART.

DART runs on an exclusive right of way on the authority of signals and the backup of automatic train protection.

In contrast Luas drivers must be ever vigilant for pedestrians and vehicles. Observance of signals is entirely dependent on the driver and the consequences of a mistake can be very immediate.

The speed of a LUAS tram is comparable to DART , the latter rarely exceeds 45 mph and averages less than 20 mph, not dramatically different to a LUAS.

[Eddie]

The Luas drivers can't seriously be expecting a 50% pay rise. Many of them will have been taken on in the depths of the recession, grateful for the job. It sounds appealing when someone tells you that you deserve to be paid the same as some other group, but a few days of lost pay and the strike will probably start to crumble.

Teachers (and other groups) who started employment in the last few years will be earning a lot less than those doing the same job who began earlier, but that's just the way it is, and as a cohort, they are less likely to be saddled with debt. Unemployment is still high enough for there to be plenty of others grateful for the Luas work.

Of course, the other side is are Irish Rail drivers paid too much? I imagine they will want the Luas strike to be over as quickly as possible, because it draws attention to them. Did I read somewhere it is €60k a year and a guaranteed public sector final salary scheme? There's plenty who'd be very happy with that.

[Mark Gleeson]

It should be noted, there was no recession at Transdev, an increase was paid out in the darkest days of the recession, no increases in CIE in years

I don't particularity think Irish Rail drivers are over or underpaid, but if Luas gets a large lump of an increase there will be a push to restore the pay gap with Irish Rail.

Luas staff will be lucky to get 1.5% a year which is a hell of lot more than what many have seen over the last 5 years.

SIPTU must be living on a different planet, Transdev is not going to pay out, it doesn't have the infinite CIE overdraft. Sustained strike action will result in a loss of 100k a day on Transdev and risk of contract termination by the NTA. You might end up with Irish Rail or Dublin Bus being asked to act as interim managers while a tender is issued

[Thomas J Stamp]

this is the thing, transdev are not CIE, they are a private company providing a service under a contract issued by the NTA. I assume that behind the trading name the contracts are between the NTA and a subsidiary company set up to run luas so there may be no question of saying its a multinational company with endless reserves of cash.

maybe SIPTU is misreading the figures, because there is no automatic correlation between increase in passenger numbers and profit for the company, i would have thought that they would have been better off looking for a form of inflation based index linked plus a percentage.

that said there is nothing that annoys me more than "they're lucky to have a job" and "there's plenty in the dole queues waiting to take their jobs" - just because there may be doesn't give n employer carte blance to run your employment rights into the ground or deny you the right to take perfectly legal action to resolve a grievance. that path leads to slave labour.

[Mark Gleeson]

For the record Luas is operated by Transdev Dublin Light Rail Limited, which is owned by its parent.

Transdev does have some control over its payments owing to the contract targets. So of the beat the performance targets they do get a limited financial benifit. So for example there is a carrot and stick thing for fare evasion, above a certain level penalty, below a certain level bonus