Seeking help and advice....Appealing a penalty

[Mark Gleeson]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but no easy way around this.

Start with the customer charter

At the Station Ticket Office
We will try to sell you the best ticket to meet your travel needs.

So there is a clear failure there.

As to the on train/issuing of the fine, nothing we can do as the offical was 100% correct in his actions.

[haddockman]

If someone rocks up to the window and asks for a return to Dublin they should be asked what type of return they need rather than just banging out a day return by default.

[Eddie]

I see this story made the Irish Times yesterday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consu...ries-1.1733879

Given that the day return is apparently the same cost as a monthly return, I think it's bad form that Irish Rail don't waive this fine. Clearly there was no intent to defraud.

I suspect they will lose more in lost custom from the negative publicity.

[Mark Gleeson]

Open return is 52.50, day return is 47.00.

[James Howard]

I also feel it is bad form. There is obviously no intent to defraud here - who would risk a fine to save a fiver on a 50 euro ticket.

There is an opportunity for Irish Rail to learn something here - that their sales staff should communicate better with their customers in order to sell them the product they need. But Irish Rail completely failed to learn anything as their knee-jerk reaction is to blame the customer.

The end result is the customer and probably most of her friends and relatives will never use the train again, and everyone wonders why rail is in decline.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

I also feel it is bad form. There is obviously no intent to defraud here - who would risk a fine to save a fiver on a 50 euro ticket.

There is an opportunity for Irish Rail to learn something here - that their sales staff should communicate better with their customers in order to sell them the product they need. But Irish Rail completely failed to learn anything as their knee-jerk reaction is to blame the customer.

The end result is the customer and probably most of her friends and relatives will never use the train again, and everyone wonders why rail is in decline.

The odd part of this is whenever I have asked for a return ticket at a booking office, the clerk has always asked when I was returning.

It's an automatic question, given it defines which ticket ought to be sold - and it is very odd that (apparently) the clerk did not ask on this occasion.

[James Howard]

I wouldn't know the likelihood of being asked for a ticket type as I haven't bought a ticket from a booking office for years but the failure to ask which ticket type wouldn't surprise me. As I said, I would find it more surprising the that someone would chance their arm to save a fiver on a 50 euro ticket.

Anyway, Irish Rail have made themselves 140-odd euro out of this incident and probably permanently removed a dozen people as potential future revenue sources. I would also suggest that they possibly could have engaged with the Irish Times slightly more constructively.

I've only ever forgotten my commuter pass once in 10 years and I know most of the ticket collectors on the Sligo route so the guy kindly gave me a social welfare ticket on the day so I could get out after I offered to buy a day return. I would be a little worried that with the way they run things nowadays that I would be facing a 100 euro fine for my troubles.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I see this story made the Irish Times yesterday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consu...ries-1.1733879

Given that the day return is apparently the same cost as a monthly return, I think it's bad form that Irish Rail don't waive this fine. Clearly there was no intent to defraud.

I suspect they will lose more in lost custom from the negative publicity.

The person (staff) in the Ticket Office should have asked as what type of return ticket the passenger required ie basic common sense.

[Mark Gleeson]

Equally its the passengers responsibility to confirm the ticket (and change) issued is what they asked for also.

I've caught several errors that way myself.

There is no legal obligation for an appeals process, if there was it would be independent and cases like this would be resolved

[grainne whale]

From a legal point of view - it could be argued that the passenger was sold a ticket that was not fit for purpose, no effort was made as to the type of return ticket the passenger required. Personally I would take this matter up with the National Consumer Agency, they have a website where you can report matters via email.http://www.consumerhelp.ie/report-a-business I hope this is of some use.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail not covered by consumer law so its not worth the hassle, land based transport is specifically excluded.

The passenger was sold a return ticket, it was possible to use that ticket to complete a return journey within the tickets validity.

Customer did not specify and Irish Rail staff did not seek clarification, customer did not check ticket at time of purchase, passenger did not check ticket before return journey.

Irish Rail have a legitimate case as customer did not have a valid ticket at time of inspection. That is the one fact that cannot be disputed.

It comes down to basic contract of sale issue, did the customer get what they asked for, were they supplied with what they asked for. We can't answer that

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

From a legal point of view - it could be argued that the passenger was sold a ticket that was not fit for purpose, no effort was made as to the type of return ticket the passenger required. Personally I would take this matter up with the National Consumer Agency, they have a website where you can report matters via email.http://www.consumerhelp.ie/report-a-business I hope this is of some use.

It could have been perfectly valid and fit for purpose, given the OP was arriving at 12:00, and there are return trains virtually every hour until 21:00.

What's needed is common sense by both parties - the clerk certainly should have asked when the OP was returning, but at the same time the OP should have checked the ticket, as it is (legally) their responsibility to have the correct ticket for their journey. In much the same way if I'm checking a bag in at the airport, I always check the baggage tag to make sure the correct flight is entered.

Having said all of that, I think making the entire network a penalty fares area is probably taking things too far - people do make genuine mistakes.

I think having it in the commuter areas is perfectly valid, but some middle ground ought to be found for Intercity trips.