[article] Proposal to bring train journey times between cities below two hours

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

There is a series of restrictions approaching Cork which brings things to 60mph 4 miles out when in fact it should be 60 at the tunnel mouth, that makes a big difference. Dublin bound the limits are actually more generous and are in most cases rise faster than the trains ability to accelerate due the stiff hill

Combined with the excessive padding minimum 5 minutes to be saved inbound.

Curragh curves were 80 mph in the past so no gain there. 80 through Portarlington appeared in late 2007 and is key to the 2:30 timings. The Hazelhatch Cherry Orchard section offsets the go slow in the Hazelhatch Kildare section which is dug up in places currently.

There is more work to be done that when an increase in speed appears it is killed by temporary restrictions elsewhere. Lisduff will be dug up shortly so any gain elsewhere will be wiped out. Limerick Junction is great on paper but since most trains stop there the time saved is minimal. In some places the track is capable of more but the signaling restricts the top speed, so Ballybrophy is still 70mph, the signal spacing looks a little tight to me for faster.

There is a need for much greater coordination of the works to ensure minimum delay and maximum benefit

The 2011 timetable did shave several minutes off many times, not enough but it does deliver punctuality, in 2009 10-15 minute delays were the norm which led to regular problems. Punctuality comes first

The 2:30 time currently offered is a much greater achievement than the once off 2:20 timing of the past, particularly as the 2:30 timing is achieved with absolute adherence to the speed limits on a much busier railway. Quickest way to see savings is to bring the train every two hours to Limerick back and to run non stop to Thurles from Dublin on all Cork trains, and also fewer calls at Limerick Junction then you could bring most Dublin Cork trains to 2:35-2:45. The average time to Cork has fallen significantly (and thats what really actually matters to passengers) in recent times as the 75 mph stock has gone to the scrapyard. There is progress but the pace of progress is not sufficient

Sorry Mark - I misinterpreted what you meant by the throat of the Cork station, I assumed you were taking about the track immediately south of the tunnel.

While the final few miles of the southbound line into Cork are indeed subject to a gradually reducing speed limit this is most unlikely to be significantly altered as it ensures that trains approach Cork station in a safe manner consistent with a severe downgrade leading to the sharply curved track through the station.

The restrictions at the Curragh were initially eased in 2005, subsequently re-imposed and then eased again.

Will the work at Lisduff you mention really result in an improvement in line speed given that the small fortune spent at Ballybrophy in last few years has yielded a speed limit of 70mph - less than that which applied at the same place in the 1990s. The signalling at Ballybrophy imposes absolutely no restriction on line speed - signal spacing and controls are designed for at least 90mph.

Limerick Junction is another example of a shedload of money spent on track and signalling without any improvement in line speed (apart from through Grange and Emly). The speed limit on the main running lines remains at 25mph compared to 60mph in the 1990s.

The previously achieved Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin 2hr-20 minute non-stop timing I mentioned was not a one-off and was routinely achieved or bettered. It lasted for up to 10 years and the sectional timings formed the basis for scheduling the principal services on the line with end to end journey times depending on the stopping pattern.

Given the record of under-performance in recent years I am really unconvinced that yet another tranche of investment will lead to worthwhile improvements.

[EnterpriseUser]

I believe with minimal improvements it should be easily possible to cover Dublin-Cork in 2hours 30 minutes with three stops at Mallow, Thurles and Limerick Junction. This morning the 0730 from Cork could have done that timing with minutes to spare. The bigger issue is services into Connolly which would be exacerbated if the line to the Airport proceeds (which is a sensible proposition in every other respect).

[Destructix]

Originally Posted by comcor

Is a Cork-bound platform in Limerick Junction completely off the radar?

If it was put in place, it would allow Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork trains to be in the station at the same time, which would hugely improve Cork-Limerick timings. While I know that's not a big priority it seems a very easy to implement one.

It would also mean that late running trains would not delay each other there.

I've often wondered what the history of the bizarre layout at Limerick Junction is. It's a bit of a disaster for simultaneous usage and for Waterford bound trains.

Regarding the idea of not stopping between Thurles and Dublin on Dublin-Cork trains, it would have to allow for people between Dublin and Thurles to make a quick connection. There always seems to be a decent number of people get on the train to Cork from Port Laoise in particular.

It seems every time im going to Cork or Limerick that its the Cork-Dublin train that comes in first to Limerick Junction and delays the Dublin-Cork train

But yeah it is a messy layout and it would be simple enough to add another platform. also how the Clonmel train has to go out on to the Dublin-Cork line to crossover.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by EnterpriseUser

I believe with minimal improvements it should be easily possible to cover Dublin-Cork in 2hours 30 minutes with three stops at Mallow, Thurles and Limerick Junction. This morning the 0730 from Cork could have done that timing with minutes to spare. The bigger issue is services into Connolly which would be exacerbated if the line to the Airport proceeds (which is a sensible proposition in every other respect).

You are absolutely correct, the Clongriffin to Dublin Airport link is not consistent with a decent Intercity or outer suburban service on the northern line. The proposed DART journey time from the city centre to Dublin airport of 25 minutes says it all - not particularly competitive and an obvious source of even more congestion.

The proposed link to Dublin airport would have tremendous potential if accommpanied by additional running lines between Clongriffin and Connolly - an airport express taking about 12 minutes could be reliably delivered along with a quatum inmprovement in journey times and reliability to all locations north of Clongriffin.

The current proposal merely ticks the airport link box and, in my view, is most unlikely to deliver anything like the claimed uplift in DART usage and most likely to depress usage of longer distance services.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its been 70mph through Ballybrophy as long as the records I have, at least going back to 1994, all the track and points have been replaced so we are left with either a signaling restriction or some form of restricted clearance issue. I have the signaling diagrams buried somewhere which could reveal the true reason.

The revised Limerick Junction costs 400,000 euro less a year to operate in signalperson costs alone. It was life expired and required replacement on safety grounds. There were several incidents there in the past due the track condition and large parts of the station were signed out of use on safety grounds. The design specification is for 80mph the same as the mid 1980's.

The safety regime has tightened up significantly which means restrictions are heavily enforced, and cascade restrictions are in place on all major speed
restictions.

The hourly Dublin Cork service combined with the fact all trains now run at 100 mph when in the past it was less than half really eats the track which means there is now a large backlog of works needed.

2:35 with 3 stops should be the target in the short term, that should be delieverable by end of 2011 once the current phase of works Kildare - Hazelhatch, Lisduff and Portlaoise are completed. There are major inconsistencies in the times taken for a journey with some trains making similar numbers of stops being up to 15 minutes slower than the fastest.

Its fairly easy add a platform at Limerick Junction but the best solution is more direct trains to Limerick which would reduce the number of stops at Limerick Junc

The best time non stop possible would be 2:05 allowing 5 minutes recovery which would fit with Irish Rail's proposed 2:20 with limited stops. This is the fastest proposed 100 mph running time and faster than that previously suggested.

[Destructix]

I wish they would run direct trains again. There was a time Limerick Junction shuttle was optional and direct trains served Thurles in the morning. I think them 2700s should be exported abroad and scrapped. Uncomfortable noisy things. I notice the track makes a unbearable (like finger nail pulled down along a chalkboard) noise in Templemore, im guessing that part of the line needs work

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Destructix

I wish they would run direct trains again. There was a time Limerick Junction shuttle was optional and direct trains served Thurles in the morning. I think them 2700s should be exported abroad and scrapped. Uncomfortable noisy things. I notice the track makes a unbearable (like finger nail pulled down along a chalkboard) noise in Templemore, im guessing that part of the line needs work

Ideally there would be a bay platform at an angle to the putative east LJ platform to allow the Clonmel train to pull in and terminate without crossing the mainline (since IE won't countenance through-running to Limerick) and thus allowing tighter arrivals/departures for connections particularly if both Dublin and Cork bound services could be connected to in a single short layover. Fat chance of that happening "in the current climate", of course.

As for selling the 2700s - given the inability of IE to find homes for the non-pushpull 201s or the Mark 3s and that the 8200 DARTs are still on the books, I wouldn't count on much enthusiasm from the rail sector for more IE leavings.

[EnterpriseUser]

Realistically we want to preserve all the lines but Dublin-Cork-Dublin probably carries in a day what Waterford-Limerick and Limerick-Ballybrophy carry in a year. With strongly supported inter-city services all is possible so it's an absolute priority to accelerate the timings of the main inter-city services. The service on the Cork and Belfast lines are very good but end to end times are far too slow. The objective has got to be two hours to Cork and 90 minutes to Belfast; and then two hours to Limerick, Waterford and Galway. It's harder to achieve on single track lines but must be made to work. Limerick Junction is an anachronism in the 21st century; it's simply unbelievable that a second platform has not been put in place. The cost would be minimal! It is still too slow on approach to Heuston despite the separation of suburban and inter-city traffic. So much could be achieved with relatively little spend.

[Destructix]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

As for selling the 2700s - given the inability of IE to find homes for the non-pushpull 201s or the Mark 3s and that the 8200 DARTs are still on the books, I wouldn't count on much enthusiasm from the rail sector for more IE leavings.

They should be using them mark 3's for the shuttle between Limerick Junction-Limerick. I don't see why they are parked up in Waterford and other places not being used. And the non push/pull GM201's should never be sold, their the only decent locomotives we have, they could be out spreading ballast and hauling freight and the 071's retiring. As for them 2700's :@ (which i have a real hatred for) even if they couldn't be sold they should just give them away. Surely got to be 2 or 3 spare sets of 29000 as well they could use. I have never actually been on a 29000 commuter, are they uncomfortable and noisy like the 2700's?

[sean]

Originally Posted by Destructix

They should be using them mark 3's for the shuttle between Limerick Junction-Limerick. I don't see why they are parked up in Waterford and other places not being used. And the non push/pull GM201's should never be sold, their the only decent locomotives we have, they could be out spreading ballast and hauling freight and the 071's retiring. As for them 2700's :@ (which i have a real hatred for) even if they couldn't be sold they should just give them away. Surely got to be 2 or 3 spare sets of 29000 as well they could use. I have never actually been on a 29000 commuter, are they uncomfortable and noisy like the 2700's?

We have them out here on the Sligo line (the 29000s I mean) and they are uncomfortable as **** with interior engine noise, awful suspension, "plastic fantastic" interior decor etc.

The 2800s are, in my view, the best trains from the Commuter pool in terms of on-board comfort. Though there is at least one poster on here who might disagree with this. That having been said, this isn't much comfort to someone faced with 2700s.

[dowlingm]

Destructix - Limerick shuttle with only one pushpull DVT still notionally available (6101 I think)? Not happening, and neither is a shuttle scenario where you need an EGV and a loco running around. If they wouldn't return some PP Mark 3s to service when the six car 22Ks derailed and the two three cars were scrapped with a resulting shortfall in available stock, they aren't going to now.

As for reducing train journey times (i.e. the topic) is there any likelihood of Ennis-Limerick times being made more competitive within even a thin funding envelope?

[neoncircles]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Destructix - Limerick shuttle with only one pushpull DVT still notionally available (6101 I think)? Not happening, and neither is a shuttle scenario where you need an EGV and a loco running around. If they wouldn't return some PP Mark 3s to service when the six car 22Ks derailed and the two three cars were scrapped with a resulting shortfall in available stock, they aren't going to now.

As for reducing train journey times (i.e. the topic) is there any likelihood of Ennis-Limerick times being made more competitive within even a thin funding envelope?

Limerick-Ennis is already fairly competitive. Journey time is 40 minutes while the bus takes at least an hour (Because it goes into the airport and Clarecastle etc). Fares are about the same too. It's quiet enough mid-day but morning and evening commuter timed trains are generally full in my experience.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a recurring issue of heavy speed restrictions approaching terminuses.

Limerick, Cork and Waterford are very slow on approach due to life expired signaling and track

[Destructix]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Destructix - If they wouldn't return some PP Mark 3s to service when the six car 22Ks derailed and the two three cars were scrapped with a resulting shortfall in available stock, they aren't going to now

Wasn't that derailment due to sunlight shining on the signals or something? I read in the Independent its was going to cost €350,000 to repair it. Also does anybody know the exact number of mk3's that are left even? There was about 14 in Waterford last July, they had generator vans so im guessing they have the push and pulls ones stored somewhere in Dublin and will probably never be used again. It makes no sense having modern enough stock of carriages (they still use similar and older carriages in England just the doors are handle opened) not being used. even the non push/pull carriages could have a use on some lines. Sure the 2700-29000 DMU's are more economical to run but are dangerously overcrowded on some routes at times and three/four weeks ago in Colbert one came in from Limerick Junction smoke coming out from the front, due to serve us at 6:00 back to the junction, they had to get another set and they didnt open the door until 6:10 delaying the Dublin/Cork trains. It makes you wonder are they more concerned with the costs and budget than providing a better and safer comfortable reliable journey.

[Mark Gleeson]

The Mk3 option was great until Irish Rail managed to get its hands on 51 new Intercity Railcars after providing a financial case which showed over 15 years the ICR option was cheaper than retaining some Mk3 coaches. The problem was the gap between the Mk3's being withdrawn and the extra coaches arriving.

A fully refurbished Mk3 coach would cost 250-300k but only have 10-15 years life. The push pull control cars cannot be upgraded to 100mph without massive expense

In a Dublin Limerick stop start race the ICR wins on both fuel and time. In a non stop dash there is little between them, ICR slightly faster but Mk3/201 cheaper on diesel.

Irish Rail's fleet reliability stacks up well in comparison to elsewhere, its certainly well ahead of comparable UK trains of a similar age and up 4 times better than Belfast for equipment from the same factory. Its far from the weakest link, the ICR fleet even in its very early days was ahead of the Mk3/201 fleet combination.

This brings us to the great conundrum of Irish Rail, if the trains are up to 4 times more reliable than elsewhere why is the service still crap?

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its been 70mph through Ballybrophy as long as the records I have, at least going back to 1994, all the track and points have been replaced so we are left with either a signaling restriction or some form of restricted clearance issue. I have the signaling diagrams buried somewhere which could reveal the true reason.

The revised Limerick Junction costs 400,000 euro less a year to operate in signalperson costs alone. It was life expired and required replacement on safety grounds. There were several incidents there in the past due the track condition and large parts of the station were signed out of use on safety grounds. The design specification is for 80mph the same as the mid 1980's.

The safety regime has tightened up significantly which means restrictions are heavily enforced, and cascade restrictions are in place on all major speed
restictions.

The hourly Dublin Cork service combined with the fact all trains now run at 100 mph when in the past it was less than half really eats the track which means there is now a large backlog of works needed.

2:35 with 3 stops should be the target in the short term, that should be delieverable by end of 2011 once the current phase of works Kildare - Hazelhatch, Lisduff and Portlaoise are completed. There are major inconsistencies in the times taken for a journey with some trains making similar numbers of stops being up to 15 minutes slower than the fastest.

Its fairly easy add a platform at Limerick Junction but the best solution is more direct trains to Limerick which would reduce the number of stops at Limerick Junc

The best time non stop possible would be 2:05 allowing 5 minutes recovery which would fit with Irish Rail's proposed 2:20 with limited stops. This is the fastest proposed 100 mph running time and faster than that previously suggested.

Mark,

You are correct about Ballybrophy, speed limit was actually 60mph until about 1986 then raised to 70mph (not 80 mph as I thought) following installation of CWR on hardwood sleepers. In my book it is extremely disappointing that despite a hugely expensive and comprehensive relay in the last few years, the line limit remains a very conservative 70 mph.

As regards Dublin/Cork timings, the fastest services offered in the 1990s were actually scheduled to complete the journey in 2hrs-17 mins. For years the non-stop journey time between Dublin and Thurles was 69 minutes - this was achieved with no less reliabity than the current 78 minutes.

Taking 1993 as an example the 0730 to Cork made 4 stops - Portlaoise, Thurles, Limerick Junction and Mallow and arrived in Cork at 1005. The present 0700 makes the same stops but is not scheduled to arrive in Cork until 0950.

In 1993 there wa no 100mph running, the speed limit through the Curragh was 70 mph, the speed limit through Portarlington was 60 mph, there was an 80 mph speed limit at Coolowley, Grange and Emly level crossings. In addition the maximum speed between Killarney Junction and Cork was 65mph. These timings were achieved with 071 class locomotives hauling up to nine Mk3 coaches versus today's more powerful 201 class locomotives hauling/pushing a maximum of 8 Mk3 coaches.

Also we have been here before. The 1993 Operation program for Transport promised the following journey times to be achieved by the bracketed dates. The best scheduled times shown are the fastest achieved in one or both directions on the routes concerned since 1971.

Dublin/Belfast 1hr-35 mins (1996), best scheduled 1hr-45 mins in 1999/2000
Dublin/Cork 2hr-15 mins (1996), best scheduled 2hr-17 mins in 1999/2000
Dublin/Limerick 1hr-50 mins (1996), best scheduled 1hr-58 mins in 1998/1999
Dublin/Tralee 3hr-15 mins (1999), best achieved 3hr-35 mins in 1988/89
Dublin/Waterford 1hr-50 mins (1998), best achieved 2hr-00 mins (Current)
Dublin/Westport 3hr-10 mins (1999), best achieved 3hr-17 mins in 2004/5
Dublin/Galway 2hr-15 mins (1999), best achieved 2hr-15 mins (Current)

Incidentally the much maligned Nenagh line hosted a service from Limerick in 1988/89 at 0810 arriving in Heuston at 1035 serving Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan, Roscrea, Ballybrophy and Portlaoise. Running time from Portlaoise was 45 minutes for this service - fastest today is 51 minutes on a massively upgraded infrastructure with 100 mph maximum speed over a significant portion of the line, 80 mph through Portarlington and the Curragh, new signalling, improved fencing and virtually no accommodation crossings.

I would be more impressed if Irish Rail leveraged investment already made and smartened up it operations, removed gratuitous timetable conflicts, replaced unnecessary self serving timetable padding with modest recovery times, reduced station dwell times and took advantage of the high performance (rapid acceleration and braking) of its current Intercity fleets. Further investment might then be appropriate based on proven performance rather than yet more potenially hollow promises.

[peterh]

How many of you are now thinking about using the motorways full time from now on?

[Jamie2k9]

Has any of this work started or being completed?

[Colm Moore]

Some track has been re-laid with a heavier rail - the difference is marked.

Limerick Junction is getting new signalling - I don't think it is in effect yet, but much of the physical work has been done.

The Kildare Route Project is done from Cherry Orchard to Hazelhatch, but Cherry Orchard-Inchicore and Hazelhatch-Cherryville are needed to fully avail of that.

More level crossings and bridges will need work, most track needs to be re-laid on Cork-Dublin, which is the oldest of the the continuously welded rail and no doubt there will be other improvements needed like drainage and fencing. There are no level crossings left from Thurles to Dublin or Mallow to Cork, but there are 2 Thurles-Limerick Junction, 5 Limerick Junction-Charleville and another 7 Charleville-Mallow. Most other lines have much higher numbers of LCs. Click on "Features" and "Level Crossings" here: http://new.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=119&n=157 On Dublin-Belfast all the LCs are north of the border.

[comcor]

As a more realistic medium term goal, it would be good to get the timings to 85 mins from Dublin to Limerick Junction, 30 mins from Limerick Junction to Mallow and 25 minutes from Mallow to Cork.

In conjunction with an extra platform in Limerick Junction, it would mean you could arrange to have Dublin-Cork, Cork-Dublin and connecting trains in both Mallow and Limerick Junction at the same time as each other. That would provide some operational efficiencies and provide the following as somewhat realist targets.

Dublin-Cork 2h 20
Dublin-Killarney 2h 45
Dublin-Limerick 1h 50
Cork-Limerick 1h 20
Cork-Killarney 1h 15