New alcohol ban?

packetswitch · 13-08-2007, 16:15

I saw a sign at Heuston today saying that alcohol is not permitted on trains.

1. Is this a new, general rule? I know certain trains have such rules but is this an across-the-board thing?
2. How will they / do they distinguish between alcohol sold on trains (which is presumably still permitted?) and alcohol brought by a passenger?
3. Does this apply to the transport of alcohol or merely the consumption of it? (Logic would presume the latter, but I think the notice certainly suggested the former...)
4. Is this a good idea?

(Title edited to reflect the shift to general alcohol discussion)

Mark Gleeson · 13-08-2007, 16:28

Nope it applied to GAA trains yesterday, been a few incidents down the years with various counties supporters. Trains from Waterford have an inforced ban on Sundays and Bank Holidays owing to the stag party issue in Kilkenny

Basic rule is if drink is available at the buffet you can drink

packetswitch · 13-08-2007, 16:50

Fair enough, but they should have put up a better sign, or at least remembered to take it down this morning! (I passed through at lunchtime and it was still there). Similar things happen with the main lines in the UK but the notices are much more detailed and clear as to when you are and aren't allowed.

Prof_Vanderjuice · 13-08-2007, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by packetswitch

3. Does this apply to the transport of alcohol or merely the consumption of it? (Logic would presume the latter, but I think the notice certainly suggested the former...)

Dublin Bus bye-laws appear to forbid transport of alcohol without the driver's permission: http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey...nformation.asp, about three-quarters of the way down. However, I don't see how it could be enforced, even given the will (consumption is a separate rule). I wonder if anyone ever asks the driver for permission, and what kind of a response they get.

packetswitch · 13-08-2007, 17:31

Indeed, the fact that consumption is a separate rule, and that every word has a meaning in bye-laws, would suggest that it does indeed refer to transport! Though, as you say, not likely to be an issue.

When I lived in the province of Ontario (a jurisdiction in which wine and spirits can only be purchased from the Government-owned liquor store), there were rules relating to the transport of alcohol in private vehicles - it had to be unopened and in the trunk (boot)...

Oisin88 · 13-08-2007, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by packetswitch

When I lived in the province of Ontario (a jurisdiction in which wine and spirits can only be purchased from the Government-owned liquor store), there were rules relating to the transport of alcohol in private vehicles - it had to be unopened and in the trunk (boot)...

I think it might be the same in the states. Part of the DWI legislation.

Mark Gleeson · 13-08-2007, 17:36

Fairly sure the rules up north are clear about a open container containing or believed to contain alcohol.

Rules should be very simple, only alcohol purchases on the train can be consumed onboard. Far too much trouble from gangs of lads showing up with a case of beer.

A revision of the byelaws in this area was in the P11 election demands, item 13

packetswitch · 13-08-2007, 17:43

Ah, I see the point when it comes to alcohol, but I'm wary of anything that seems to give a monopoly over consumption to the two euro chocolate bar "snack car"....

I am sympathetic to the public order rationale but given that overpriced alcohol will continue to be on sale I'd be sceptical of the *motives* (on IÉ's part) behind a blanket ban.

If only for a more mature nation. I've had pleasant, long European journeys where many passengers have produced a bottle of wine (brought from home) and indeed it indicates a nice thing about rail travel. But I can't pretend that alcohol-on-Irish-trains is similarly situated :-(

Oisin88 · 13-08-2007, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Fairly sure the rules up north are clear about a open container containing or believed to contain alcohol.

Rules should be very simple, only alcohol purchases on the train can be consumed onboard. Far too much trouble from gangs of lads showing up with a case of beer.

A revision of the byelaws in this area was in the P11 election demands, item 13

This is an over-reaction. It is not the actual having the alcohol that is the problem. It isn't even the drinking that is the problem. It is the behaviour.

Some people don't even need alcohol to cause discomfort to other passengers. In fact alot of the more obnoxious individuals I have been confronted with on trains have not had any alcohol.

This is more of the: No ball games, no pedestrians, no fun type of thing. The whole "no alcohol in public areas" just forces the whole thing underground.

Mark Gleeson · 13-08-2007, 19:15

Well when you see cases of cheap larger being carried aboard you know you have a problem. Things can get fairly hairy on the Friday evening Rosslare train. Should of course note it is an offence to be intoxicated on railway property

If you can only drink what you purchase onboard, the situation can be controlled to a much greater extent. You can't walk into your local with a case of <<insert cheap beer name>> and start cracking cans open

As far as I've been able to determine it is not an offence to drink on a DART or commuter service and clearly that needs to change

The Waterford trains didn't even have a dining car and there was chaos until a total ban on drink was imposed

Oisin88 · 13-08-2007, 20:13

It's still an over-reaction. I have drunk cans of my own beer and bottles of my own wine on trains. I may have even drunk a cocktail on a DART. Lots of people can drink on trains without causing any problems.

People should just be thrown off straight away if there is a problem and prosecuted/banned from using the service. Banning alcohol is just presuming guilt straight away.

Your local is a business. Of course you can't bring your own stuff in. The train mostly only sells crappy beer anyway (Bud) I think people who don't have the money should be allowed drink cheap beer if they like.

Colm Donoghue · 13-08-2007, 21:32

a brother out law of mine was charged EUR27.50 for 5 cans of a popular stout on the train back from Cork to Dublin.

if that's not gouging I don't know what is.

sean · 13-08-2007, 21:39

The liberatarian in me screams "Bull

" at this.

Not everyone who drinks causes trouble. So what if someone wants to have a few quiet cans on a long journey - as long as it's just a few and they keep quiet, what's the harm?

Penalise the people who make the trouble - throw their ar*es off the train, restrict their use of the services in future etc. That would solve the problem. But no need to go OTT IMO.

Derek Wheeler · 13-08-2007, 22:12

P11 election manifesto.....

TRANSPORT POLICE.

Problem solved and us happy train drinkers can carry on drinking.

That said, our actual police force are under staffed and lacking in resources, so what hope have we for a dedicated transport police? Very little in fact. This nation is boxing way above its weight and many problems are down to that simple fact.

Colm Moore · 14-08-2007, 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof_Vanderjuice

Dublin Bus bye-laws appear to forbid transport of alcohol without the driver's permission: http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey...nformation.asp, about three-quarters of the way down. However, I don't see how it could be enforced, even given the will (consumption is a separate rule). I wonder if anyone ever asks the driver for permission, and what kind of a response they get.

Drivers won't even know if you have a bottle in your shopping. They will probably tolerate closed cans, but won't tolerate open cans (or hot coffee - safety risk).

Mark · 14-08-2007, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by packetswitch

Fair enough, but they should have put up a better sign, or at least remembered to take it down this morning! (I passed through at lunchtime and it was still there). .

Is your work that bad packetswitch that you have to have a few swigs in the morning to get through the day?..

CSL · 14-08-2007, 14:19

Need to check the more recent S.I's but S16 of
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html only covers intoxications doesn't ban you from bringing booze

saw the 1957 ones and they have the ban on men entering the female only compartments

see chap 8 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1957/en/si/0042.html

dowlingm · 16-08-2007, 22:27

packetswitch - whatever the law is here in Ontario doesn't apply to trains - they serve liqueurs after dinner on VIA1

CSL · 17-08-2007, 10:15

Under what bye-law or CIE reg therefore is booze banned ? [ checked DOT and irishstatutebook and couldn't find any ]

Mark Gleeson · 17-08-2007, 10:23

There is no byelaw to that effect, however all tickets sold for GAA specials are clearly stated as being dry trains

Quote:

No alcohol or glass bottles will be allowed on the special trains.

It is a serious issue in the late evening on DART/suburban services it is becoming quite unpleasant to travel when faced with gangs of youths clearly drunk jumping around and being generally disruptive

13-08-2007, 16:15	#1
packetswitch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 216	Alcohol Bans on Trains I saw a sign at Heuston today saying that alcohol is not permitted on trains. 1. Is this a new, general rule? I know certain trains have such rules but is this an across-the-board thing? 2. How will they / do they distinguish between alcohol sold on trains (which is presumably still permitted?) and alcohol brought by a passenger? 3. Does this apply to the transport of alcohol or merely the consumption of it? (Logic would presume the latter, but I think the notice certainly suggested the former...) 4. Is this a good idea? (Title edited to reflect the shift to general alcohol discussion) Last edited by packetswitch : 13-08-2007 at 21:45. Reason: change of heading

13-08-2007, 20:13	#11
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	It's still an over-reaction. I have drunk cans of my own beer and bottles of my own wine on trains. I may have even drunk a cocktail on a DART. Lots of people can drink on trains without causing any problems. People should just be thrown off straight away if there is a problem and prosecuted/banned from using the service. Banning alcohol is just presuming guilt straight away. Your local is a business. Of course you can't bring your own stuff in. The train mostly only sells crappy beer anyway (Bud) I think people who don't have the money should be allowed drink cheap beer if they like. __________________ ! Last edited by Oisin88 : 13-08-2007 at 20:15.

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13-08-2007, 16:28	#2
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Nope it applied to GAA trains yesterday, been a few incidents down the years with various counties supporters. Trains from Waterford have an inforced ban on Sundays and Bank Holidays owing to the stag party issue in Kilkenny Basic rule is if drink is available at the buffet you can drink

13-08-2007, 16:50	#3
packetswitch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 216	Fair enough, but they should have put up a better sign, or at least remembered to take it down this morning! (I passed through at lunchtime and it was still there). Similar things happen with the main lines in the UK but the notices are much more detailed and clear as to when you are and aren't allowed.

13-08-2007, 17:31	#5
packetswitch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 216	Indeed, the fact that consumption is a separate rule, and that every word has a meaning in bye-laws, would suggest that it does indeed refer to transport! Though, as you say, not likely to be an issue. When I lived in the province of Ontario (a jurisdiction in which wine and spirits can only be purchased from the Government-owned liquor store), there were rules relating to the transport of alcohol in private vehicles - it had to be unopened and in the trunk (boot)...

13-08-2007, 17:36	#7
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Fairly sure the rules up north are clear about a open container containing or believed to contain alcohol. Rules should be very simple, only alcohol purchases on the train can be consumed onboard. Far too much trouble from gangs of lads showing up with a case of beer. A revision of the byelaws in this area was in the P11 election demands, item 13

13-08-2007, 17:43	#8
packetswitch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 216	Ah, I see the point when it comes to alcohol, but I'm wary of anything that seems to give a monopoly over consumption to the two euro chocolate bar "snack car".... I am sympathetic to the public order rationale but given that overpriced alcohol will continue to be on sale I'd be sceptical of the motives (on IÉ's part) behind a blanket ban. If only for a more mature nation. I've had pleasant, long European journeys where many passengers have produced a bottle of wine (brought from home) and indeed it indicates a nice thing about rail travel. But I can't pretend that alcohol-on-Irish-trains is similarly situated :-(

13-08-2007, 19:15	#10
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Well when you see cases of cheap larger being carried aboard you know you have a problem. Things can get fairly hairy on the Friday evening Rosslare train. Should of course note it is an offence to be intoxicated on railway property If you can only drink what you purchase onboard, the situation can be controlled to a much greater extent. You can't walk into your local with a case of <<insert cheap beer name>> and start cracking cans open As far as I've been able to determine it is not an offence to drink on a DART or commuter service and clearly that needs to change The Waterford trains didn't even have a dining car and there was chaos until a total ban on drink was imposed

13-08-2007, 21:32	#12
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	a brother out law of mine was charged EUR27.50 for 5 cans of a popular stout on the train back from Cork to Dublin. if that's not gouging I don't know what is.

13-08-2007, 21:39	#13
sean Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 707	The liberatarian in me screams "Bull " at this. Not everyone who drinks causes trouble. So what if someone wants to have a few quiet cans on a long journey - as long as it's just a few and they keep quiet, what's the harm? Penalise the people who make the trouble - throw their ar*es off the train, restrict their use of the services in future etc. That would solve the problem. But no need to go OTT IMO.

13-08-2007, 22:12	#14
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	P11 election manifesto..... TRANSPORT POLICE. Problem solved and us happy train drinkers can carry on drinking. That said, our actual police force are under staffed and lacking in resources, so what hope have we for a dedicated transport police? Very little in fact. This nation is boxing way above its weight and many problems are down to that simple fact.

14-08-2007, 14:19	#17
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	Need to check the more recent S.I's but S16 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html only covers intoxications doesn't ban you from bringing booze saw the 1957 ones and they have the ban on men entering the female only compartments see chap 8 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1957/en/si/0042.html

16-08-2007, 22:27	#18
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	packetswitch - whatever the law is here in Ontario doesn't apply to trains - they serve liqueurs after dinner on VIA1

17-08-2007, 10:15	#19
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	Under what bye-law or CIE reg therefore is booze banned ? [ checked DOT and irishstatutebook and couldn't find any ]