Dublin to get new DART service - Page 3

comcor · 28-06-2007, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

Why can't they match and mix with some trains to Heuston and some to Bray? The Howth to Bray Coastal Tour on the Dart is a legend with itself without breaking it up.

A good reason not to mix and match is the experience those of us who have ever commuted on the Northern Line in London have experienced.

You often find that the first two or three trains aren't going where you want, so you have to wait. In off -peak, it can be a long wait. You also introduce a network bottleneck, reducing the overall number of available trains.

Keeping the two lines separate, with a simple change should be faster than making you wait for the first direct train.

Gary · 28-06-2007, 13:54

I don't think anyone is denying this is a great step forward but even still am concerned why then can't maintain some trains on the traditional Bray - Howth route.

From the Soutsiders perspective look at the volumes getting on the train at Clontarf Road (East Point Business Park) going to the southside in the evening. They will now go to Pearse and have to change trains. Yea big swing its just a change train but still inconvience that could be avoided.

Admit sometimes for the better good you do need to cause some inconvience but even considering the cross track issue am sure you can still accomadate trains on the traditional dart route.

packetswitch · 28-06-2007, 14:29

Tradition gets IÉ into a lot of problems (shift patterns that made sense in the 60s if at all, antiquated fare structures, (until recently) bizarre connection patterns for branch lines, etc). The only reason that there is a 'traditional DART route' is a mixture of 19th century design and 1970s/80s decision to electrify. If the decision had been taken to electrify (e.g.) Maynooth ten years ago, we'd be talking about the 'traditional Maynooth route' by now.

Tradition be gone - they should do what makes sense (which is the configuration that works in terms of engineering/time and involves the fewest changes for the greatest number of potential routes), rather than looking at existing Sutton-Blackrock trips (or whatever). While of course no station should be cut out of the network while still in use, a massive, expensive project like this should not have retention of the status quo (which occured due to coincidence in some cases) as the key policy objective. I'm a bit worried now that you will have politicians talking about "Save Sutton to Blackrock" (or whatever) which is the typical Irish response to transport debates, and one of the root causes of a messy, paranoid and hyperlocal approach to Greater Dublin Area transport policy...

Mark Hennessy · 28-06-2007, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by packetswitch

I'm a bit worried now that you will have politicians talking about "Save Sutton to Blackrock" (or whatever) which is the typical Irish response to transport debates, and one of the root causes of a messy, paranoid and hyperlocal approach to Greater Dublin Area transport policy...

I can already hear the calls to LiveLine....

ACustomer · 28-06-2007, 14:45

I find some of the reaction to today's news a bit depressing. First, many people seem to have a bad understanding as to what the interconnector proposes to do (It seems clear enough to me!). Second if there is one passenger who loses for every 100 who gain, you can bet that Joe Duffy ("I know a woman in Clontarf who can't get to Greystones") and all the brainless hacks in the Indo will moan and moan and moan.

tomcosgrave · 28-06-2007, 14:49

Speaking for myself I couldn't care less about Sutton to Blackrock or the like - arguing to retain that sort of thing is utterly unjustified. What I am talking about is the convenience of switching from one service to another if coming from the Northside and going on to Connolly.

From what I've read here today, I'm already convinced that retaining the DART route over the Loop Line from the Northside is a bad idea, but a service of some sort to Connolly should be retained given it's a mainline station with a bus station across the street - occasionally retained - absolutely not a wholescale retention of it and most certainly outside of rush hour. It just seems ludicrous not to do it and instead make people go to a Luas stop in the Docklands, or double back on another DART from Pearse.

If it's deemed that keeping this is a bad idea because more passengers will be inconvenienced than will benefit, I can certanly live with that as you can still transfer, but I think it would be a shame to lose the convenience to the passenger - which is what mass transit is partially about, in my opinion.

eoin · 28-06-2007, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Of course the offical unveiling took place way back in 2005 in the National Concert Hall, in fact we know nothing more today that we did then

While people who take an interest in rail transport have known about this for a very long time, the public at large has not. I had to rely on Platform 11 and Wikipedia to educate myself on what the Interconnector is. Iarnród Éireann have never bigged it up before now, and maybe if they had it would have been an election issue (even if only a minor one). Even when Transport 21 was announced, all of the media focus was on Metros and Western road and rail. There was a sense that the interconnector was secondary.

The name "interconnector" means nothing to the average member of the public. IÉ have been very clever today in renaming it DART Underground for PR purposes, and by spelling out exactly what it will mean. Hopefully now the public will get behind it.

Brian Condron · 28-06-2007, 15:07

Is there any engineering or operational reason why the two new DART lines are going to be Maynooth - Greystones and Hazelhatch - Malahide? Could they not have kept status quo, and added a Maynooth to Hazelhatch service?

Mark Gleeson · 28-06-2007, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoin

While people who take an interest in rail transport have known about this for a very long time, the public at large has not. I had to rely on Platform 11 and Wikipedia to educate myself on what the Interconnector is. Iarnród Éireann have never bigged it up before now, and maybe if they had it would have been an election issue (even if only a minor one). Even when Transport 21 was announced, all of the media focus was on Metros and Western road and rail. There was a sense that the interconnector was secondary.

The name "interconnector" means nothing to the average member of the public. IÉ have been very clever today in renaming it DART Underground for PR purposes, and by spelling out exactly what it will mean. Hopefully now the public will get behind it.

It was on the 9pm RTE news that night in 2004, remember it well. It cropped up last year this time it made the 6pm and 9pm RTE news

If anything the interconnector has had more media coverage that metro in recent years

Mark Hennessy · 28-06-2007, 15:19

Look at all the cynics out there

I voted the last option myself.

A Poll on rte.ie

Quote:

It will be a great improvement to my commute 19% (238 votes)

It won't affect my life 29% (351 votes)

It will be a nice way to get in and out of Dublin on the weekends 12% (150 votes)

I will still prefer my car 4% (54 votes)

I doubt it will ever get built 35% (436 votes)

Mark · 28-06-2007, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Condron

Is there any engineering or operational reason why the two new DART lines are going to be Maynooth - Greystones and Hazelhatch - Malahide? Could they not have kept status quo, and added a Maynooth to Hazelhatch service?

Among the other reasons mentioned the existing line wouldnt have directly connected with the metro north then.

ThomasJ · 28-06-2007, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Condron

Is there any engineering or operational reason why the two new DART lines are going to be Maynooth - Greystones and Hazelhatch - Malahide? Could they not have kept status quo, and added a Maynooth to Hazelhatch service?

If anything its pointless Maynooth-hazlehatch takes 15-20 minutes by taxi/bus who in their right mind (other than entusiasts) would be in favour of a train trk longer than 1 hour in favour of a 20 minute bus ride?? its the same with lucan/adamstown-leixlip etc. its pointless.

Brian Condron · 28-06-2007, 15:35

Well obviously there wont be much of a demand for Maynooth to Hazelhatch via Dockalnds, however it is only for operational reasons then that the two DART lines will be as proposed. Are there any engineering reasons why the Maynooth line can't be connected to the interconnector (or maybe it will be to keep the option of the circle line open for the future, I don't know).

All in all, should be good craic. Now who do I get a job with so I can work on this project?

Mark Gleeson · 28-06-2007, 15:39

Ok I know the person who dreamt up the Kildare - Drogheda / Maynooth Bray thing

It makes a lot of sense for a heap of reasons

1. The connections don't work with Metro North otherwise
2. It promotes through journeys which people will make
3. It doesn't double back on itself
4. The speed profile of the Maynooth line matches the Pearse Bray section 60mph ish
5. The original Kildare Drogheda route would have required 100mph capable DART's, later expansion likely
6. Northsiders wouldn't connect with the Green line Luas otherwise

Brian Condron · 28-06-2007, 15:41

Barry Kenny on Newstalk atm.

losexpectation · 28-06-2007, 16:13

I thought the interconnector was going to use a tunnel that alreay exists?

clonsilladart · 28-06-2007, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Condron

Is there any engineering or operational reason why the two new DART lines are going to be Maynooth - Greystones and Hazelhatch - Malahide? Could they not have kept status quo, and added a Maynooth to Hazelhatch service?

I personally would love it that way..... Direct service from Clonsilla to St Stephens Green would rock my Saturday night, but as Spock said "the good of the many outweighs the good of the one" (.....or something like that).

For all the reasons outlined by Mark, this is the best solution!!!

(I think another reason against a Maynooth to Hazelhatch "C" line is:
easiest Engineering way would be to use the Midland line and thus eliminate Drumcondra station and the connection with Metro North)

clonsilladart · 28-06-2007, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Condron

Barry Kenny on Newstalk atm.

Anybody kind enough to put the interview on-line????

Mark Gleeson · 28-06-2007, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonsilladart

Anybody kind enough to put the interview on-line????

The last word interview will be available in the next day or two

James Shields · 28-06-2007, 22:44

The original proposal was for Maynooth-Hazlehatch (or it might have been Maynooth-Kildare) until it was realised that the Maynooth line was a better match forthe Greystones one, and the Kildare line a better match for the Northern line.

One very good reason for this is because it means that both lines cross every every other commuter line at least once, whereas the "traditional" DART line would miss out both Metro lines, as well as the Green line and the Lucan Luas.

Remember, there will still be Drogheda/Dundalk commuter trains, and I expect they'll stop at least at Howth Junction. So one option for anyone going to Connolly (at least from north or east of HJ) is to hop on a commuter train.

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28-06-2007, 13:54	#42
Gary Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 71	I don't think anyone is denying this is a great step forward but even still am concerned why then can't maintain some trains on the traditional Bray - Howth route. From the Soutsiders perspective look at the volumes getting on the train at Clontarf Road (East Point Business Park) going to the southside in the evening. They will now go to Pearse and have to change trains. Yea big swing its just a change train but still inconvience that could be avoided. Admit sometimes for the better good you do need to cause some inconvience but even considering the cross track issue am sure you can still accomadate trains on the traditional dart route.

28-06-2007, 14:29	#43
packetswitch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 216	Tradition gets IÉ into a lot of problems (shift patterns that made sense in the 60s if at all, antiquated fare structures, (until recently) bizarre connection patterns for branch lines, etc). The only reason that there is a 'traditional DART route' is a mixture of 19th century design and 1970s/80s decision to electrify. If the decision had been taken to electrify (e.g.) Maynooth ten years ago, we'd be talking about the 'traditional Maynooth route' by now. Tradition be gone - they should do what makes sense (which is the configuration that works in terms of engineering/time and involves the fewest changes for the greatest number of potential routes), rather than looking at existing Sutton-Blackrock trips (or whatever). While of course no station should be cut out of the network while still in use, a massive, expensive project like this should not have retention of the status quo (which occured due to coincidence in some cases) as the key policy objective. I'm a bit worried now that you will have politicians talking about "Save Sutton to Blackrock" (or whatever) which is the typical Irish response to transport debates, and one of the root causes of a messy, paranoid and hyperlocal approach to Greater Dublin Area transport policy...

28-06-2007, 14:45	#45
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	I find some of the reaction to today's news a bit depressing. First, many people seem to have a bad understanding as to what the interconnector proposes to do (It seems clear enough to me!). Second if there is one passenger who loses for every 100 who gain, you can bet that Joe Duffy ("I know a woman in Clontarf who can't get to Greystones") and all the brainless hacks in the Indo will moan and moan and moan.

28-06-2007, 14:49	#46
tomcosgrave New to the board Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10	Speaking for myself I couldn't care less about Sutton to Blackrock or the like - arguing to retain that sort of thing is utterly unjustified. What I am talking about is the convenience of switching from one service to another if coming from the Northside and going on to Connolly. From what I've read here today, I'm already convinced that retaining the DART route over the Loop Line from the Northside is a bad idea, but a service of some sort to Connolly should be retained given it's a mainline station with a bus station across the street - occasionally retained - absolutely not a wholescale retention of it and most certainly outside of rush hour. It just seems ludicrous not to do it and instead make people go to a Luas stop in the Docklands, or double back on another DART from Pearse. If it's deemed that keeping this is a bad idea because more passengers will be inconvenienced than will benefit, I can certanly live with that as you can still transfer, but I think it would be a shame to lose the convenience to the passenger - which is what mass transit is partially about, in my opinion.

28-06-2007, 15:07	#48
Brian Condron Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 268	Is there any engineering or operational reason why the two new DART lines are going to be Maynooth - Greystones and Hazelhatch - Malahide? Could they not have kept status quo, and added a Maynooth to Hazelhatch service?

28-06-2007, 15:35	#53
Brian Condron Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 268	Well obviously there wont be much of a demand for Maynooth to Hazelhatch via Dockalnds, however it is only for operational reasons then that the two DART lines will be as proposed. Are there any engineering reasons why the Maynooth line can't be connected to the interconnector (or maybe it will be to keep the option of the circle line open for the future, I don't know). All in all, should be good craic. Now who do I get a job with so I can work on this project?

28-06-2007, 15:39	#54
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Ok I know the person who dreamt up the Kildare - Drogheda / Maynooth Bray thing It makes a lot of sense for a heap of reasons 1. The connections don't work with Metro North otherwise 2. It promotes through journeys which people will make 3. It doesn't double back on itself 4. The speed profile of the Maynooth line matches the Pearse Bray section 60mph ish 5. The original Kildare Drogheda route would have required 100mph capable DART's, later expansion likely 6. Northsiders wouldn't connect with the Green line Luas otherwise

28-06-2007, 15:41	#55
Brian Condron Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 268	Barry Kenny on Newstalk atm.

28-06-2007, 16:13	#56
losexpectation Regular Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 54	I thought the interconnector was going to use a tunnel that alreay exists?

28-06-2007, 22:44	#60
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	The original proposal was for Maynooth-Hazlehatch (or it might have been Maynooth-Kildare) until it was realised that the Maynooth line was a better match forthe Greystones one, and the Kildare line a better match for the Northern line. One very good reason for this is because it means that both lines cross every every other commuter line at least once, whereas the "traditional" DART line would miss out both Metro lines, as well as the Green line and the Lucan Luas. Remember, there will still be Drogheda/Dundalk commuter trains, and I expect they'll stop at least at Howth Junction. So one option for anyone going to Connolly (at least from north or east of HJ) is to hop on a commuter train.