A real Transport 21

[sean]

Oisin, sign me up for most of that except:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

3. Reallign the Wexford Inter-City Line so that:
...
(c) it swings around the southside through tallaght into Heuston
4. Let Sligo trains swing across from Maynooth to Hazelhatch and into Heuston.

Ok first of all Heuston as a long-distance service terminus is way overrated IMO. too far from the city centre and the developing docklands.
Second, many of the planned T21 lines will interchange with the Connolly based network, for example the Metro at Drumcondra.
Thirdly, the cost of these new alignments and infrastructure that would be necessary for a small number of trains would be quite large - you could do a heck of a lot more for the Sligo and Rosslare lines with a lot less.

Although new intercity alignments bypassing the DART to go to Heuston would have the benefit of segregating the Maynooth-Bray local services from long distance services, the service frequency of both does not require such drastic measures nor will it for some time. A middle-road passing loop system with short stretches of 3 or 4 tracks here and there would allow local services to be run frequently while express services overtake them as needed at the passing loops.

The Sligo/Longford and Rosslare/Gorey/Arklow lines should IMO be merged into a single set of Intercity and Commuter services.
This has the benefit of providing more 0-change and 1-change possibilities to the main destinations in Dublin city from both sides of the merged line.
Sligo/Longford gets direct trains to Tara St. (the busiest station in Ireland and closest to O'Connell Bridge) and Pearse station with interchange to the future Interconnector.
Arklow/Rosslare would get direct service to Drumcondra where passengers can change to the future Metro for the city centre, Northside, Airport and Swords.
None of that would be accomplished by sending said trains to Heuston.
Through running, eliminating the need for a train to turn around in Dublin city would also give IE more flexibility as to what classes of train to use.
It may even allow IE to sneak a few more DARTs through the Connolly bottleneck because Sligo/Longford trains bring practically everything to a halt when they approach/leave the terminal platfoms.

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by sean

Oisin, sign me up for most of that

Duly signed up

except: Ok first of all Heuston as a long-distance service terminus is way overrated IMO. too far from the city centre and the developing docklands.

Heuston is more geographically central to where people live in Dublin. Long distance services aren't for everyday use.

(It's also near where I live)

Second, many of the planned T21 lines will interchange with the Connolly based network, for example the Metro at Drumcondra.

I would have the new Wexford line skirting across the southside and interchanging with the Luas green line somewhere near Sandyford (stretching it to Bray is a laugh) and with other southbound Metros & Luases. There would also be a non-stop heavy rail link to the airport.

Thirdly, the cost of these new alignments and infrastructure that would be necessary for a small number of trains would be quite large - you could do a heck of a lot more for the Sligo and Rosslare lines with a lot less.

Can't argue with the money, but then isn't this thread about forgetting the money.

Although new intercity alignments bypassing the DART to go to Heuston would have the benefit of segregating the Maynooth-Bray local services from long distance services, the service frequency of both does not require such drastic measures nor will it for some time. A middle-road passing loop system with short stretches of 3 or 4 tracks here and there would allow local services to be run frequently while express services overtake them as needed at the passing loops.

The new allignment would have the 3/4 track stretches from the start. Could run commuter services on this and also bring inter-city to Tallaght. It's population deserves that. It would also give you a faster way to the city centre through building faster lines. The existing line hugs the coast and meanders out to Dalkey and then back in.

The Sligo/Longford and Rosslare/Gorey/Arklow lines should IMO be merged into a single set of Intercity and Commuter services.

Excellent idea too. Obviously my scenario is completely hypothetical, but this would work.

[comcor]

Dublin: Most of the current programme, with the following changes

• Dublin Transportation Authority
• Build the airport spur from Portmarnock. Continue it to Swords and have it rejoin the mainline near Balbriggan. This would allow Dublin-Belfast InterCities to stop at the airport and allow services from Drogheda and Dundalk. Build a new planned town between the airport and Balbriggan
• Scrap the airport Metro.
• Build a substantial network of Luas lines to the extent that anyone inside the M50 is never more than 1km from a line
• Get the Heuston-Connolly LUAS underground.

Cork:

• Cork Transportation Authority
• Kent Station to face the Lee
• Luas Lines: Kent Station-UCC-CIT-Ballincollig (over Christy Ring [Opera House] Bridge and along the North Channel and the Mardyke. Ringaskiddy-Carrigaline-Airport-UCC-City Centre-Blackpool (or Kent Station switching onto the first line where they cross)
• Buses: Bus every 10 minutes on major suburban routes. Tickets for single journey, multiple journeys up to an hour (50% more expensive), multiple journeys to the end of the day (100% more expensive). Tickets usable on LUAS.
• Ferry bus to link lower harbour towns (Monkstown, Ringaskiddy, Crosshaven, Whitegate) to Cobh and the suburban rail network

Limerick:

• Bus proposals as Cork, but with a bus company for Limerick separate from BE
• Metro system developed on the unused rail lines around the city
• Demolishing Southill

Galway:

• Not really familiar enough with the city to comment, but Athenry suburban seems a no brainer and it should have its own bus company

Waterford:

• Times to suit commuting on existing lines into the city (Kilkenny, Clonmel and Rosslare). Development planned along these lines.
• Its own bus company (Maybe I should have said get BE out of the business of running city buses everywhere, have these run locally and leave BE to InterCity and Rural buses)

General:

• Reopen a lot of rural stations (Buttevant, Kilmallock, Knocklong, Dundrum etc.) and have these linked with 2 car sets timed to feed into the InterCity network.
• As a general principle, it should be possible to leave Dublin in the morning and get into Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford before 8:30am. This should apply for trips to Dublin too.

[BlahDeBlah]

I haven't seen anything about a river bus up/and down the Liffey (but then again I haven't looked much).

I've been living in London, and the system there seems OK. The Liffey represents a congestion free thoroughfare through the city.

Was this looked at in Transport 21?

[Thomas J Stamp]

It already exists, as a tourist trip. The tidal nature of the river would make the timetable a nightmare and predictability a no-no, unless a weir was constructed somewhere like Poolbeg.

These list things are a a great idea. Here's mine, wont be done but however.

1. CIE dosnt licence off its docklands property for housing and the like.
2. Build the interconnector
3. Have trains from Dublin to Belfast through the Phoenix Park Tunnel.
4. Massive lateral extension to Connolly where temp station is now, together with new underground station all west and south trains to stop there through PPT
5. Close Heuston, sell it to Developers.
6. Sell off Half of Inchicore, build massive apartment blocks on it.
7. Double Deck trains to Drougheda
8. Electricfy to Drougheda as well.
9. Electrify to Portlaoise.

Buses:

1. Congestion Charge within the NCR/SCR Dublin.
2. Move all west city bus teminii to the South Docklands area build a depot there like Harristown
3. All buses from Northside and Southside which go into the city centre are cross town routes.
4. Utilise the potential of Griffith Collins Avenues Northside, Kylemore Road and the like Southside (Geog of the Southside not my strong point)
5. Create a core network of around 30-40 routes that will be very high freq.
6. No cash on buses, no validators either, LUAS system only.
7. Vending machines on every street, cards available at every shop and pub.
8. Zonal fare system. Simple zones: Inner city zone, north city zone, south city zone, outer city zone, west city zone.
9. Demolish busaras, move depot to the new rail station at Docklands.

Others:

1. modily the constitutional provisions on private property to allow infrastructural developments which are in the public goos and certified to be so by a vote in the Oireachtas. This will also apply to specific areas, eg, anything within the M50 and not built on now will be built on, within the limits of good stratiegic guildlines on quality of life eg parks, shops, schools. The land will be vested in the state and leased back to developers who will be incentivised to develop that land in preferance to other land.

2. For every planning application for more than 5 houses a developer will have to pay heed to the dermographic trends of the area. Rhis may in effect force developers to build schools within their estates. Whenever a development of more than five houses (or a series of developments consisting of less then five developments but which are in proximity) is being considered by a planning authority the planning authority shall be obliged to notify the departnemt of Education, the local health authority and the local VEC and shall consider their observations in relation to that development.

3. Housing will be concentrated in towns and settlements that have their own sanitary and fresh water infrastructure in place after a set date to be determined by the Oireactas and that date shall be a nationwide date.

That's about it.

t21, in actual fact, all transport planning, is about moving people. We are facing a large logisical problem in moving people because many governments and local authorities have allowed our polulation to grow too disparsed. We have to fill in the gaps, otherwise we shall be seeing massive settlements starting everywhere.

It almost happend in Laois. Think about that. It would have been a total disaster and a nightmare.

The logjam is the constitutional provisions, for the common good, it has to be amended, otherwise we can throw our hat at it.

Sort it out, then move people. Adamstown, you know, could have been built at Newlands Cross. Why wasnt it?

[James Shields]

My fantasy T21...

More or less as T21 but...

Rail:
1. 4-track East Wall Junction to Malahide, plus add passing loops at stations like Skerries where room allows to allow non-stop trains to overtake stopping ones.
2. Electrify to Drogheda and Kildare.
3. Relay Belfast and Cork lines to be capable of at least 150mph (125mph is so last century).
4. Build airport spur and offer airport express service non-stop to Spencer Dock and then all stations to Heuston.
5. Reopen Navan-Drogheda.
6. Reopen Athlone-Mulingar.
7. Aim to achieve frequencies of 5 mins pean and 15 mins off-peak within 30km of city (Bray, Maynooth, Hazlehatch and Balbriggan).
8. Frequencies of 10 mins peak and 30 mins off-peak within 50km.

Metro:
1. Aim to build full orbital Metro.
2. Build central underground section as a single project to avoid multiple TBM insertions.
3. Continue south of Stephen's Green, splitting into southern branch connecting to existing Green line, and western branch to Harolds Cross and Tallaght.
4. Start Metro West from north, initially linking to Blanchardstown and Lucan.
5. Last section will link two arms of orbital metro. This means that metro will always be connected, removing need for multiple depots.
6. Continue Metro North to connect with Northern line, increasing opportunities for connections.

Luas:
1. New Luas route to connect Stephen's Green-Ranelagh to when rest of Green line converted to Metro. Possibly would connect to UCD and Stilorgan.
2. Continue Liffey Junction to Finglas, and on to connect with Metro (possibly at Metro Park).

Note that the above would give a total of 12 radial routes out of the city - 4 Rail (Drogheda, Maynooth, Kildare and Bray), 4 Metro (Swords, Blanchardstown/Liffey Valley, Tallaght and Cherrywood/Bray), and 4 Luas (Finglas, Lucan, Tallaght and Stilorgan).

City buses:
1. Build proper busways - either dedicated lanes the whole, or where possible dedicated streets. Send all buses through the city centre on a limited number of routes.
2. Provide quality interchange "hubs" where routes cross (preferably close to rail stations).
3. Remove all city centre termini and make all routes cross-city.
4. Make all buses cashless, and provide TVMs at the busiest stops, and make tickets available from all newsagents.
5. Provide electronic information signs at major stops.
6. Provide a high-frequency service and a reliable timetable.

General:
1. Create a proper, independent transport authority for Dublin.
2. Introduce a common zone and fare system across all operators (public and private).
3. Allow transfers between operators.
4. Restructure pricing to encourage more use of season tickets.
5. Introduce a "Travelcard".
6. Dramatically improve quality of passenger information, and make system easier to use.

Well, I can dream.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by BlahDeBlah

I haven't seen anything about a river bus up/and down the Liffey (but then again I haven't looked much)

There is a paris-style bateaux-mouche or however you spell it there at the moment but I don't know frequency and cost?

After Island bridge you have wiers - but city centre withe liffey walls to avoid eroision, you'd be grand.. Could be cheaper then extending the Luas to the docks..!

[Rushed2nowhere]

(dartify means to upgrade a line to D.A.R.T. standard)
This would be my plan.The Navan Kingscourt line would bereopened once the line from Clonsilla to Navan is reopened.
A line would then go; Carrickmacross,Castleblaney,Monaghan,Omagh, Netownstewart, Strabane/Lifford with the station built over the river and then terminate in Letterkenny with a spur to Derry.
A new line would be built from Portadown going through Armagh, Monaghan, Enniskillen, Manorhamilton and Sligo.
A third line could then go Monaghan, Clones, Cavan and then join up with Connolly Sligo line at Edgeworthstown.
A fourth line would go Sligo,Bundoran, Ballyshannon, Donegal,Balybofey/Stranar, Castlefinn and Lifford/Strabane.. These lines would effectivly serve this area. .
I would propose another westren rail corridor. The line to Tuam to be built as proposed. From Tuam it would go to Ballyhaunis, Ballaghaderreen and then follow the track bed between Ballaghaderreen and the Sligo Connolly line. I would also build a line going from Ballyhaunis to Ballina via Knock airport, Swinford and then a new station in Foxford closer to the town centre. Manaulla junction could then be closed and any unused land sold off. The tracks between said junction and Foxford could be reused and then the land sold off.The present W.R.C. could finally be buried and again the land could be sold off.
Not sure the spur to Shannon airport would be good idea. I am not familiar with Galway.
The Limerick Ballybrophy line would be diverted just after Roscrea and go Mountrath, Mountmellick and Portarlington.
I would reopen the lines to Foynes and operate this as a commuter service
with stations at Foynes, Askeaton, Rathkeale, Adare, Patrickswell and then one or two more in the suburbs of Limerick.
I would also reopen the direct line between Patrickswell and Charleville.The Limerick to Rosslare harbour line should have much more services. I would propose five in each direction, with commuter services operating around Limerick and Waterford on this line.
Not familiar with Cork transport woes but I support the commuter overhaul and the redevelopment of Cork Kent to face the river. I think a line needs to be built to Ringaskiddy and the airport.
The line between Killarney and Tralee needs to straightened and Farranfore station to be located in the airport.
Closer to home a twin track tunnel between Bray and Greystones needs to be built. We could even use the T.B.M's from the interconnector tunnel. The line south of Greystones should be deviated inland to run just east of Kicoole and Newcastle with new stations in both towns. A new line would then be built between Wicklow and Arklow as straight as possible. Once this is completed six trains a day would run between Dublin and Rosslare Europort each way. The commuter services would continue using the present alignment and the line would be dartified to Wicklow from Dublin.
Pearse station needs a facelift/ properly cleaned/ revamped.
The line between Athlone and Mullingar would be reopened with all trains to Galway, Westport and Ballina leaving from Connolly. This would free up space out of Heuston and there are four lines between Connolly and Liffey junction. There's four platforms where trains could terminate in Connolly.
The viaduct at Drogheda would be double tracked. Dunleer station could be reopened. I support the “extend the D.A.R.T. campaign” but I think also it should be extended to Kildare and Drogheda. These lines need to be dartified as soon as possible that the commuter railcars can be freed up and used for Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Galway commuter services. At the moment the way I see it Iarnrod Eireann have two options either they buy more commuter railcars or they dartify the Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda lines to provide more capacity.
I think one major obstacle is the fact that at the moment we are only just producing enough electricity at peak times to meet demand. One solution to this problem would be for Iarnrod Eireann to produce there own electricity by funding wind turbines, building there own power stations etc (this power would be for all pubic transport).
Another issue I.E. need to address is the pricing issue. Cork Dublin. return by rail is nearly €60 yet the same journey by bus is €18. Another thing is the huge difference between adult fares and child fares. Does everyone become magically rich when they turn 16? Most people nowadays do there leaving cert. In Switzerland up to the age of 16 you pay ½ price on all the trains and once you turn 16 you can pay 150 Swiss franks (€100) and continue to pay ½ price on all the rail services.
Also I would propose a survey of all the level crossings in Ireland. The survey would examine the cost of eliminating them, the effect they have on train speeds, safety etc. As with the roads the railways need to be realigned to make them as straight as possible to increase speed and safety.
To fund all this I would stop building motorways/dual carriage ways and concentrate on bypasses and 2+1 roads.