[Article] Pay and Display on the way

[dowlingm]

this issue has just raised its head here too, albeit more in the withdrawal of free parking for pass holders. TTC lots cost more to operate though because of snow removal costs and that some parking is on leased land.

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Trampas

What do you mean by why should I be subsidised?

Maintaining car parks costs money. If you don't pay to park, then you are being subsidised.

Of course, the car parks in train stations haven't been well maintained so far, but maybe this revenue stream will change this.

[Mark Gleeson]

Other way to look at is why is Irish Rail facilitating non rail users in the car park

They have made no efforts to block non passenger usage, if they where serious about providing a proper car park facility for rail passengers that would be the first thing to do. In many cases it would free up a lot of space without impacting on the long suffering and already overcharged commuter.

If I shop in the shopping centre and buy something I get free parking, if I buy nothing I pay. Everyone has a train ticket so why can't they work it out

[chipper]

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Other way to look at is why is Irish Rail facilitating non rail users in the car park

They have made no efforts to block non passenger usage, if they where serious about providing a proper car park facility for rail passengers that would be the first thing to do. In many cases it would free up a lot of space without impacting on the long suffering and already overcharged commuter.

If I shop in the shopping centre and buy something I get free parking, if I buy nothing I pay. Everyone has a train ticket so why can't they work it out

How? You have already I believe indicated that they have no powers to fine. That problem has started to appear as on-street parking charging has been introduced, and motorists have lost their chance of free parking elsewhere. If I did use my car to get to the station, I would be pretty annoyed (as a season ticket holder) to have to queue and get a voucher or token of some sort every day to access the car park.

As regards "overcharged commuters", sorry, that doesn't wash. As I indicated earlier, season tickets are cheap here compared to the UK for example, even before the Taxsaver scheme knocks nearly 50% off the price for many. Go to www.nationalrail.co.uk , and compare Sheffield - Nottingham (£2116 - approx €2645) with Portarlington - Dublin, even at current exchange rates. Level of service on the former is roughly hourly, two coach, unit stock with buffet trolley (sometimes), so the service is comparable; much as dislike the new trains here, they are streets ahead of the trains on this route.

A Portarlington - Dublin Heuston annual costs €2210. Assuming 47 weeks use, 5 days per week, that works out at €47 per week, or about €9.40 per day. That is 11c per mile (assuming 40 miles each way) - and that is before taxsaver. You cannot come near to running a car for that.

LC

[Mark Hennessy]

Originally Posted by chipper

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

Were there many machines at all?
So now we will see massive queues and commuter frustration as they all must queue each Monday morning.

So much for the new ads on taking the relaxing train over the car.

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Laois Commuter

So you choose to live 10 miles from the station. Why should you be subsidised by those who live closer? When looking for my current home, walking distance to the station was one of the criteria I used.

Car use has a cost, and why such users feel that they should not have to pay is beyond me. I would love to see the irate responses if UK levels of station parking charges were implemented - see my earlier post.

LC

I live near Slane, approximately 11 miles from Drogheda train station. I do so because of family, my wife's job and my children's school. I am not going to move house and force my children onto a school bus.

Slane is slap-bang on the N2 and just 30 miles from O'Connell Street but public transport is simply not provided. Check it out. If you can find a way for me to get to Dublin before 9am without having to drive to either Drogheda train or bus stations or Navan for the bus then let me know. I have tried them all, including the private bus service that runs right through Slane, but only the train can get me to work on time and home again at a reasonable time.

As for your comments on UK levels of parking charges, you are correct about this (my brother-in-law pays £30 per week in Milton Keynes) but of what relevance is it here? Our trains do not copy the UK in terms of speed and service levels so why would they copy the car parking charges?

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy

Were there many machines at all?
So now we will see massive queues and commuter frustration as they all must queue each Monday morning.

So much for the new ads on taking the relaxing train over the car.

There are a fair number of machines dotted all over the car park so I don't see queuing being a problem. Of course if you get five people ahead of you and the train is leaving in a minute and the rain is lashing down and then you have to go back to the car to display the ticket...well only time will tell how smoothly it runs.

I am going to look at avoiding this by buying a weekly ticket in the evening. If I buy a ticket on a Monday morning then it should be valid right through until the same time the next Monday? Am I right? In that case if I buy a ticket on a Monday evening before leaving the station then it should be good right through until the following Monday evening when I get off again?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by chipper

I am going to look at avoiding this by buying a weekly ticket in the evening. If I buy a ticket on a Monday morning then it should be valid right through until the same time the next Monday? Am I right? In that case if I buy a ticket on a Monday evening before leaving the station then it should be good right through until the following Monday evening when I get off again?

We don't know until we see a weekly ticket

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

We don't know until we see a weekly ticket

The weekly tickets in Sallins are valid for exactly 7 days, to the minute.

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Other way to look at is why is Irish Rail facilitating non rail users in the car park

They have made no efforts to block non passenger usage, if they where serious about providing a proper car park facility for rail passengers that would be the first thing to do. In many cases it would free up a lot of space without impacting on the long suffering and already overcharged commuter.

If I shop in the shopping centre and buy something I get free parking, if I buy nothing I pay. Everyone has a train ticket so why can't they work it out

Are non rail users using rail car parks really that much of a problem at the moment?

The rules on shopping centre car parking vary from centre to centre, most of them seem to charge whether you buy anything or not.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by chipper

I live near Slane, approximately 11 miles from Drogheda train station. I do so because of family, my wife's job and my children's school. I am not going to move house and force my children onto a school bus.

Slane is slap-bang on the N2 and just 30 miles from O'Connell Street but public transport is simply not provided. Check it out. If you can find a way for me to get to Dublin before 9am without having to drive to either Drogheda train or bus stations or Navan for the bus then let me know. I have tried them all, including the private bus service that runs right through Slane, but only the train can get me to work on time and home again at a reasonable time.

As for your comments on UK levels of parking charges, you are correct about this (my brother-in-law pays £30 per week in Milton Keynes) but of what relevance is it here? Our trains do not copy the UK in terms of speed and service levels so why would they copy the car parking charges?

Obviously I do not know your work times, but this link http://www.collinscoaches.ie/timetable.html appears to offer connections covering most commutes. They appear to arrive on time - I have seen them in Dublin. Took me 5 minutes to find.

LC

LC

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by plant43

Are non rail users using rail car parks really that much of a problem at the moment?

The rules on shopping centre car parking vary from centre to centre, most of them seem to charge whether you buy anything or not.

It depends on the station. I'm told its a problem in Kildare and other places. It seems very unfair not to specifically address this issue now. As we have pointed out the charge won't have any impact on this as it will be significantly less than the local authorities charge.

Point is quite simple, car park is for rail passengers. You could setup a exit barrier to take train tickets, if you have no ticket you pay say €5. Of course if you travelled ticketless you get caught with the charge which seems fair, for most greater Dublin region the €5 would still be less than a single ticket

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

It depends on the station. I'm told its a problem in Kildare and other places. It seems very unfair not to specifically address this issue now. As we have pointed out the charge won't have any impact on this as it will be significantly less than the local authorities charge.

Point is quite simple, car park is for rail passengers. You could setup a exit barrier to take train tickets, if you have no ticket you pay say €5. Of course if you travelled ticketless you get caught with the charge which seems fair, for most greater Dublin region the €5 would still be less than a single ticket

That would be a great idea. On weekends then would you charge an add on fee for parking?

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Laois Commuter

Obviously I do not know your work times, but this link http://www.collinscoaches.ie/timetable.html appears to offer connections covering most commutes. They appear to arrive on time - I have seen them in Dublin. Took me 5 minutes to find.

LC

LC

I have tried them. Unfortunately their first evening arrival in Slane is 18:30 which is a bit too late. My current commute sees me get off the train in Drogheda at 17:20 and arrive in Slane at about 17:50.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by chipper

I have tried them. Unfortunately their first evening arrival in Slane is 18:30 which is a bit too late. My current commute sees me get off the train in Drogheda at 17:20 and arrive in Slane at about 17:50.

Fine. But again, that is your choice. It is rather different to your earlier post "but there is no public transport provided." There is - you choose to go a different way.

OTOH, there is a bus to McGruders Cross, which is 1-2 minutes running time away according to the timetable; not more than 10 minutes walk I would suggest, although I do not know the geography, which gets there at 1743....

LC

[Rusalka]

Originally Posted by Laois Commuter

A Portarlington - Dublin Heuston annual costs €2210. Assuming 47 weeks use, 5 days per week, that works out at €47 per week, or about €9.40 per day. That is 11c per mile (assuming 40 miles each way) - and that is before taxsaver. You cannot come near to running a car for that.

It would be really nice if the €2210 (less tax) was the only charge for everyone, though.

Hubby and I are going to drive from next year on. The €384 parking charge is the main deciding factor, unfortunately. I honestly weighed up the pros and cons of continuing to commute via rail, but unfortunately it's no contest anymore.

Here's our reckoning (lets assume we live in a dream world where the ticket prices don't rise next year ):

Current commute by rail/bus:

Our annual rail passes would cost €4620. (€2210+€2210+one bus add-on of €200)

With 41% taxsaver, we'd actually pay only €2725.80.

Adding 48 weeks parking @ €8 per week (€384) and you get €3109.80 per annum.

Add to this, the cost of driving in and out to the station every day:

2.2km (per Google Maps) x 10 journeys/week = 22km/week or 1056km/year.

Car gets 15km per litre petrol (conservative average town/country driving - we drive a titchy, economical little car!), so at petrol estimate of €1.33 per litre (let's suppose it goes up again), that's an additional €93.63 per annum.

When we get into Heuston, I would take the 92 or walk if the weather's good, so my ticket would be covered by my bus add-on of €200. However, my husband needs to take 2 buses to get to work (3 days a week), so he uses a Travel 90 ticket, costing €1.70 each way. This is an additional €10.20 per week, or €489.60 per annum.

Grand total for our 48 week year is then €3109.80 (train) + €93.63 (petrol to/from station) + €489.60 (Dublin Bus) = €3693.03, or €76.94 per week.

Switching to a commute by car is as follows:

Route to work, including a little detour on days he travels, and drops me off: 74.19km each way 3 days a week and 69.89km each way 2 days a week (per AA RoutePlanner) = 724.7km/week. Given our 15km/litre, that takes about 48.31 litres of petrol, and costed again at, say, €1.33, that's €64.26 per week, or €3084.32 per annum.

So we have €3693.03 per 48-week annum for the train/bus option, and €3084.32 for the driving option, saving about €608.71 - little more than the cost of the parking charge, you might say, ASSUMING ticket prices for rail and bus stay the same next year - and that's not going to happen, is it?

However, when you consider the commute times as follows:

Daily commute by rail/bus:
(Average daily commute times we currently do most often than not when we have to drive)
Inbound:
Him: Dep. 07.30, Arr. 09.40 = 2 hours 10 minutes
Her: Dep. 07.30, Arr. 09.15 = 1 hour 45 minutes
Outbound:
Him: Dep. 17.00, Arr. 19.30 = 2 hours 30 minutes
Her: Dep. 17.30, Arr. 19.30 = 2 hours

Total time: 8 hours 25 minutes

Daily commute by car:
(Maximum trip times encountered to date - for example, Monday mornings through school term times, and Friday evenings)
Inbound:
Him: Dep. 06.30, Arr. 08.00 = 1 hour 30 minutes
Her: Dep. 06.30, Arr. 07.45 = 1 hour 15 minutes
Outbound:
Him: Dep. 16.00, Arr. 17.45 = 1 hour 45 minutes
Her: Dep. 16.15, Arr. 17.45 = 1 hour 30 minutes

Total time: 6 hours

I know we have to leave earlier than usual, but we get home earlier too (both have flexible working hours). If we leave at 7am, it takes about 20 minutes longer to get in, at 7.30am, it takes about 35 minutes longer to get in, but leaving at 8am, we can add only an additional 20 minutes or so, but then we wouldn't be able to leave early in the evening, and as the journey time is quite unpredictable leaving Dublin city centre past 4.30pm, at that stage it could take about 2 hours to get home (which is still as quick as the train!), but we'd be better off having supper in Dublin and waiting past rush hour until about 6.30pm before leaving, as it would be more pleasurable than sitting in the traffic.

As well as this, we're currently paying for our annual tickets, but we find that we often have to drive 2, 3 or 4 times a month anyway, as we will want to go out in Dublin for a gig or a meal or to see friends/family, and there is simply no train to get us home afterwards.

So that's why we're back in the car from next January. Oh, that and the antisocial muppets who use the train - smokers, and rail staff who just don't care about it, crappy-noisy-earbud-wearers (the byelaw-breaking tools!), Crazy Frog ringtone users, hen and stag parties getting p*ssed, the queueing at Heuston for seats some (most?) days, the late boarding of trains, cancellation of trains, bus transfers, school tours booking up whole carriages at a time, waiting in the rain for buses to/from Heuston, etc., etc., etc. - all things we were willing to put up with in the past.

At least in the car, I don't have to queue, it's always clean (ish!), it's always quiet (or I have music of MY choice!) and dry, and there's no antisocial gobshytes (unless I'm being particularly cranky!)

I know the roads can have problems too - pile-ups, slow moving traffic in adverse weather, stress of dealing with some stoopit road-users, etc., but honestly, we feel it'll be less painful than the train has become.

I'm not arguing that cars are the perfect way to go - far from it - I LOVE trains, and I take them all over Europe (including the gorgeous sleepers!) in preference to any other form of transport, but this latest charge (for what really is a crappy, crappy parking facility) is just a step too far for me, I'm sad to say.

[ACustomer]

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

[AndrewMc]

Originally Posted by Victor

But you live within cycling distance of the station. And what of parking charges at the city end?

I think the challenge is to force IÉ to provide the extra facilities.

Indeed. There are no bike racks in Athy, and I've no parking charges where I work in Dublin.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

Another advantage of the car in some cases is that it offers far greater flexibility than public transport. This is due to our poor coverage and integration but for example I would rarely go straight home after work be it lectures, meetings, training etc. Public transport does not give a lot of people that flexibility and in most cases it would take far longer.

There is no 'one solution' to making people less car dependant but rather several which all have to be coordinated in their approach and implementation.