[article] Phoenix Park Tunnel

[Jamie2k9]

Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?

I'm sure IE would like not to bring them back but they will have no choice but to spend some cash as re instate them because numbers are growing again and they will not be able to cope in Dublin with just 2900 and ICR's won't be able to do all the work.

Until the Maynnoth line goes DART there will be no free DMU's rolling stock. Will this likely require new EMU's as well?

[berneyarms]

I suspect that if the 2700s are pressed back into service, that the 2800s would return to Dublin, and the 2700s reinstated on the Limerick local services.

Reinstating the remaining Mark 4 sets would also release some ICR sets as well, so there could be some rejigging of sets around the network.

I cannot see the proposed GCD service operating without trains currently in storage being pressed back into service.

[Jamie2k9]

Mark IV retuning will have no impact on stock available, only 2 units in the morning and peak demand is usually staggered but in the evening is where the issue is most of the time.

Returning a two car 2700 to M3 Parkway off peak would make a lot of sense. I do agree if 2700 are going to be maintained in Limerick again the its likely they would be based there but if not they unlilely to be based.

As I said already a re scheduling of Intercity can deliver additional units and we will have the Belfast 22 back as well. Will be suprised if 2700 are returned before 2018 at earliest. Guess a lot depends on growth within GDA as well as ip take on Kildare-GCD services once they comence. I fully expect IE to try 22s if passenger numbers ans availability allow.

[Mark Gleeson]

At least 10 2700 are returning, that not enough to cover Limerick

But it would be enough to cover Docklands, Ballina etc

[James Howard]

There are 12 29k cars on the Longford commuter service that we'd be glad to see the back of. It would be a lot more efficient to run the two Longford commuter services as limited stops using 22ks. One of the evening services already is. It is ridiculous to be running these trains on a service that takes almost 2 hours.

Of course they'd need to make the morning trains limited stops from Maynooth but that would be a major positive for the service.

[Jamie2k9]

At least 10 2700 are returning, that not enough to cover Limerick

But it would be enough to cover Docklands, Ballina etc

10 coaches/5 units or 20 coaches/10 units?

Would think the 2 2750 units are completely gone as is the one hybrid 2700 which operated with a hybrid 2600 unit. That would leave 1 other 2700 out of action if 10 units are coming back.

[Mark Gleeson]

10 coaches 2700 + full Mk4 fleet

[Jamie2k9]

10 coaches 2700 + full Mk4 fleet

Full Mark 4 fleet as in 7 of 8 sets, unless one is going to Belfast or another route it is completely unsustainable for such operations and decisions like that is why IE are making such losses.

The only Cork service which Mark 4 is currently required is the 16.00 ex Heuston/19.20 ex Cork Mon-Fri.

Even putting 4/5 Mark IV in heavy usage Mon-Thur is not sustainable when currently the 08.00 (4-ICR), 10.00 (3), 12.00 (4), 14.00 (4). The 21.00 (7) is unlikely to change because of the 05.50/06.15 services.

The 22 fleet will just be sitting doing nothing if Mark 4s are returned and costing IE more.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Mark IV retuning will have no impact on stock available.

I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

2 Mark 4 sets returning would potentially release 2 ICR sets during the morning peak (05:50 ex-Cork and 08:00 ex-Heuston).

That is precisely when sets are at a premium.

Rejigging rosters could then result in those ICRs displacing 29k sets elsewhere.

[Jamie2k9]

I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

2 Mark 4 sets returning would potentially release 2 ICR sets during the morning peak (05:50 ex-Cork and 08:00 ex-Heuston).

That is precisely when sets are at a premium.

Rejigging rosters could then result in those ICRs displacing 29k sets elsewhere.

You will not see a Mark IV departing before the 06.15 non stop service by an ICR as already two ICR's are on top of one another by Limerick Junction, add several minutes to stopping/starting and you will be looking at an 05.40 departure to be safe. You then have the the fact another additional Heuston-Cork required to place the ICR for the 06.15 service as the 21.00 currently does both 05.50/06.15. Added that I would expect 200 on a good day for the 05.50 and a Mark IV is 450+ seats.

Not sure what you are getting at in terms of the 08.00 ex Heuston which is operated by a set which brings a full load of commuters to Heuston before that, by the time that is re dispatched for a second commuter run your inbound peak is gone.

A good few Heusotn arrivals in the mornings between 07.30-10.00 are sent with passengers or empty to Portlaosei so to suggest there is a shortage is just completely un true. Very easy to change rosters if demand was that stretched.

IE will not remove any 2900 from Rosslare/Longford because of heavy loading closer to Dublin and I really can see either route getting reduced stopping services as they will likely be crawling anyway with DART and Maynooth.

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

I could easily come up with a quick calculation of how many 22's are used during morning/evening peak and its not near 63 units in service. The only time IE are under pressure with 22's is Fridays because of demand and Sundays because of where sets are placed from a Mon-Sat working.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

You will not see a Mark IV departing before the 06.15 non stop service by an ICR as already two ICR's are on top of one another by Limerick Junction, add several minutes to stopping/starting and you will be looking at an 05.40 departure to be safe. You then have the the fact another additional Heuston-Cork required to place the ICR for the 06.15 service as the 21.00 currently does both 05.50/06.15. Added that I would expect 200 on a good day for the 05.50 and a Mark IV is 450+ seats.

Not sure what you are getting at in terms of the 08.00 ex Heuston which is operated by a set which brings a full load of commuters to Heuston before that, by the time that is re dispatched for a second commuter run your inbound peak is gone.

A good few Heusotn arrivals in the mornings between 07.30-10.00 are sent with passengers or empty to Portlaosei so to suggest there is a shortage is just completely un true. Very easy to change rosters if demand was that stretched.

IE will not remove any 2900 from Rosslare/Longford because of heavy loading closer to Dublin and I really can see either route getting reduced stopping services as they will likely be crawling anyway with DART and Maynooth.

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

I could easily come up with a quick calculation of how many 22's are used during morning/evening peak and its not near 63 units in service. The only time IE are under pressure with 22's is Fridays because of demand and Sundays because of where sets are placed from a Mon-Sat working.

My point about the 08:00 Heuston/Cork is that perhaps the Mark 4 set could operate the inbound commuter service too?

Things can change and may have to in order to facilitate the new GCD services.

I'm looking at it with a completely open mind - and on that basis it is perfectly possible that two ICR sets would be released by returning two Mark 4 sets.

Just because you don't think it will work doesn't mean it won't happen.

If necessary a 20:00 service from Dublin to Cork could be added to operate the 06:15 the next morning.

There are plenty of options available.

The sets going to Portlaoise are either going for servicing or are operating the hourly stopping service - are you suggesting cancelling both of those?

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

The 22ks are ideally suited for limited stop services on the northern line and this is indeed one of the routes and service types for which the last batch was purchased. In addition there is a obvious requirement to supplement the Enterprise service and plug some of the more obvious holes in the timetable as well as providing additional capacity.

[ThomasJ]

One for a conspiracy theory forum, one could be forgiven to think in the short term they're planning

Balbriggan-Bray/Greystones DARTs
Howth junction-howth shuttle
Dublin-drogheda/Dundalk service with limited stops using 22ks

[Jamie2k9]

My point about the 08:00 Heuston/Cork is that perhaps the Mark 4 set could operate the inbound commuter service too?

Things can change and may have to in order to facilitate the new GCD services.

I'm looking at it with a completely open mind - and on that basis it is perfectly possible that two ICR sets would be released by returning two Mark 4 sets.

Just because you don't think it will work doesn't mean it won't happen.

If necessary a 20:00 service from Dublin to Cork could be added to operate the 06:15 the next morning.

There are plenty of options available.

The sets going to Portlaoise are either going for servicing or are operating the hourly stopping service - are you suggesting cancelling both of those?

Add a 20.00 service to run empty like the 21.00, just pure waste of money. I am well aware why they are going to Portlaoise but if demand was that critical they could be swapped around and anyway Heusotn is like a train park in the mornings than an active station.

Just take the 06.15 ex Cork has a 5 hour layover in Heuston before it's next duty. The fleet is not under severe pressure that's all I am saying.

I fully expect changes for GCD but noting significant, IE will easily have 22's available and will do whatever possible to ensure they are available.

The 22's on M3 Parkway/Maynooth are the immediate issue and additional commuter stock when available that will free a set or two up.

The 22ks are ideally suited for limited stop services on the northern line and this is indeed one of the routes and service types for which the last batch was purchased. In addition there is a obvious requirement to supplement the Enterprise service and plug some of the more obvious holes in the timetable as well as providing additional capacity.

They are and don't they operate in various 4/7 formations currently? At peak times unless more stops are removed they are not really suitable but if that was to happen fine make them available if possible. I agree about Enterprise services but surly the Mark IV tests in the last few weeks/months are going to do this at some stage?

[dowlingm]

bringing back 2700 makes more sense for regional usage, unless IE figured out the inter-set coupling issue they used to have? Limerick Depot seemed to have them figured out for usage there until they were mothballed.

An 0600 ex Heuston (1 stop at the Junction and no more unless consistently arriving well before 8) could fill the 0800 Mallow slot... but nobody needs to go to early morning meetings in Limerick or Cork