Christmas & New Year Travel 2012 - Chat

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

It's several years now since I had to stand on an Irish train, bar the Dart.

The country reopened for business on the 26th, airports, buses, trams all running. Most shopping centres were open on the 26th and many pubs, so there was money to be made. People who wanted to use the train though, either had to use other transport or stay at home.

The national rail network is very small. Trains run across Europe on the 25th, stations are open and manned, regardless of the local economy or passenger numbers. So it isn't good enough for Irish Rail to take an extra long siesta.

lots of standing room only on trains out of hueston when i was going up and down in december.

The "Country re-opening for business" line is not strictly true. Take, for example, one shop I know of which did open on christmas day 8-8. for years the staff resisted it, last year he got his way, and told staff that they all had to do two hours each or they would get their P45 on the 26th.

Was he there? No, he was at home with his family whilst the staff were not.

I know of another who tried to open christmas day and was met with not only total revolt by the staff, but wasnt long in finding out that if he did open up nobody would shop there after christmas. Needless to say, he too was not going to darken the door on the 25th while forcing his staff to do so.

People are actually decent enough, in the small towns anyway, to realise that retail staff are entitled to a bit of a break.

The fact that our local shops were open till 7pm on christmas eve and opened again at 9am on the 26th was also reviewed negativly. There was a time here that all the shops closed at 3pm or thereabbouts on the 24th and didnt reopen till the 27th.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

The "Country re-opening for business" line is not strictly true. Take, for example, one shop I know of which did open on christmas day 8-8.

I know of another who tried to open christmas day and was met with not only total revolt by the staff, but wasnt long in finding out that if he did open up nobody would shop there after christmas. Needless to say, he too was not going to darken the door on the 25th while forcing his staff to do so.

People are actually decent enough, in the small towns anyway, to realise that retail staff are entitled to a bit of a break.

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

[laoisfan]

Originally Posted by on the move

It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

Says who ?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

so one tradition, which is that some shops open stephens days is fine, another one is not fine.

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

so one tradition, which is that some shops open stephens days is fine, another one is not fine.

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

Neither is operated because of cashflow issues. The Luas Red Line has had no late night service since 2010, because of much overblown "public order" concerns. IE don't operate at all on the 26th due to tradition. So the other transport networks are given carte blanche to clean up what traffic is out there.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

In an Ireland increasingly multinational and multi-faith over recent years, the national shutdown on the 25th comes as a bit of a shock, is quite difficult to justify, and may well be seen as rather backward by our non-national population. When the 26th arrives, normal life begins to gradually get back to normal.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

Some still don't, but most now open for a limited time on the 26th. It's a huge sporting day after all, and that will always attract customers.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

Neither is operated because of cashflow issues. The Luas Red Line has had no late night service since 2010, because of much overblown "public order" concerns. IE don't operate at all on the 26th due to tradition. So the other transport networks are given carte blanche to clean up what traffic is out there.

In an Ireland increasingly multinational and multi-faith over recent years, the national shutdown on the 25th comes as a bit of a shock, is quite difficult to justify, and may well be seen as rather backward by our non-national population. When the 26th arrives, normal life begins to gradually get back to normal.

Some still don't, but most now open for a limited time on the 26th. It's a huge sporting day after all, and that will always attract customers.

it is our belief that the red line does not run for purely economic reasons, and untill there is a nightclub area all around the red line stops in town that will go on. before you get to the stops you have to pass all the nitelinks and taxi ranks.

the national shutdown being quite hard to justify on multi-cultural and faith grounds??? you're jumping the shark baby. every country has their own versions, eg, islamic countries and isreal. dont see our ex-pats taking that attidude there. besides, how many actually observe christmas as a religious holiday?? Sod all.

I really dont understand your love and desire for the rat race, 24/7 commercialism and corporate erotica. I would say I am off for lunch, but you would scorn me as its for wimps.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

it is our belief that the red line does not run for purely economic reasons, and untill there is a nightclub area all around the red line stops in town that will go on. before you get to the stops you have to pass all the nitelinks and taxi ranks.

the national shutdown being quite hard to justify on multi-cultural and faith grounds??? every country has their own versions, eg, islamic countries and isreal. dont see our ex-pats taking that attidude there. besides, how many actually observe christmas as a religious holiday?? Sod all.

I really dont understand your love and desire for the rat race, 24/7 commercialism. I would say I am off for lunch, but you would scorn me as its for wimps.

Lunch usually takes around 30 minutes. It doesn't go on for 30 hours.

Every country has their own way of celebrating Christmas indeed. The Orthodox countries take their Christmas in January. But essential services there remain available. People have to get around the place, it's not simply get a car or walk.

Re 24/7 commercialism: This is supposed to be a modern country in the Western World, not North Korea. Those who can make money create opportunities to make it, those who don't bother count the cost. The Red Line runs through the busiest and most populated areas of Dublin. Temple Bar is 5 minutes walk from Jervis. There's a plethora of bars and restaurants in and around Abbey Street, no Luas outside the door though. There was the NYE concert on, yet no Luas was available on the Red Line less than a kilometre away.

Nothing economic about it. There's plenty of custom available, if there was a will to find it. Instead "public order" concerns are cited, despite the trams stuffed with security personnel on every late night journey.

Laziness/Stubbornness is the real reason.

[Jamie2k9]

I expect a lot of people wouldn't use the Red Luas Line if an operated past 00.30. People just about feel safe during the day...

I am sure the Red Line did run until 03.30 at times before so demand isn't there.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

Re 24/7 commercialism: This is supposed to be a modern country in the Western World, not North Korea. Those who can make money create opportunities to make it, those who don't bother count the cost. The Red Line runs through the busiest and most populated areas of Dublin. Temple Bar is 5 minutes walk from Jervis. There's a plethora of bars and restaurants in and around Abbey Street, no Luas outside the door though. There was the NYE concert on, yet no Luas was available on the Red Line less than a kilometre away.

Nothing economic about it. There's plenty of custom available, if there was a will to find it. Instead "public order" concerns are cited, despite the trams stuffed with security personnel on every late night journey.

Laziness/Stubbornness is the real reason.

BiB = you been watching wall street a bit much.

as for the rest.... Temple Bar has got all the night links and several taxi ranks around it. have you actually been in o'connell street after midnight? The only thing going are the fast food outlets from abbey street to the bridge. I have spent many an evening in the grand central, and have gazed out as empty luas followed by empty luas followed by empty luas goes past all the way to the last one. Your last paragraph, finally, actually contradicts everything else you say. Your use of "public order" suggests you find that reason as doubtful, whcih is exactly what i started this off by saying. The only reason why there are no late night red line Luas is because it lost money hand over fist.

There are similar levels of anti social behaviour on the Red Line in the evening and on bus services. They still run though, because there is money to be made.

In a similar vein, the same applies to rail services over the christmas. If everyone was so eager to work 24/7 in a manner in which you appear to desire so much then yes there would be train services. However, most people have more sense.

[James Howard]

If you want to generalise this argument, I think there is a happy medium in this. For example, "traditionally" there was no need for busses leaving the city for the west after 6PM. When I was in college the furthest west you could get on Bus Éireann after 6 was Kilcock. Yet now there is a bus to Sligo at 11PM and you can get a bus the opposite direction that puts you in the airport at something like 5AM. Obviously tradition was wrong in that case.

I think there is a very strong case to be made for running the trains a bit later at night. It is simply ludicrous that the last train to Longford is 7:05. At the very least, Irish Rail could come to an arrangement with Bus Éireann to allow people with passes free or discounted travel on the later buses but with all of the investment in automation on the rail network over the last few years, there should be a train going at least as far as Mullingar. It would serve a lot more more people than the soon to be combined 7:05 and 9:05 services to Sligo.

The point is that the contribution of late services is more than just the passengers on that service. For each person on a 9PM train to Longford there would probably be a couple of extra passengers on the 7:05 who have either not bought a car or left it home because they have figured that the train is flexible enough to suit their needs.

That being said, to return to the original topic, the lack of services on Christmas day is of very little concern to 99% of the population. A skeleton service on Stephens' day might be desirable for Irish Rail's own benefit to avoid forcing people to try out direct airport buses (or city centre) that are probably easier for a lot of people than taking the train to Heuston.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

I expect a lot of people wouldn't use the Red Luas Line if an operated past 00.30. People just about feel safe during the day...

I am sure the Red Line did run until 03.30 at times before so demand isn't there.

Agreed. And the security staff are as much use as a kettle with no element.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

as for the rest.... Temple Bar has got all the night links and several taxi ranks around it. have you actually been in o'connell street after midnight? The only thing going are the fast food outlets from abbey street to the bridge.

Lots of times. At the weekend after gigs at the Point, parties and sports events, it's as busy as a Saturday afternoon, as most major cities are in Europe. Yet there's only nitelinks and expensive taxis around after 1am here, and 24/7 transport there. Doesn't add up.

Your use of "public order" suggests you find that reason as doubtful, whcih is exactly what i started this off by saying. The only reason why there are no late night red line Luas is because it lost money hand over fist.

There are similar levels of anti social behaviour on the Red Line in the evening and on bus services.

When I was on Red Night Luas services, there was more passenges on them than services earlier in the evening. There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai, so there was no possibility of anti-social behaviour whatsoever. So the myth that all hell breaks loose only after 12.30 doesn't wash with me.

[Mark Gleeson]

There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai,

Thats the problem, having to massively increase staffing levels to ensure safety. The numbers don't stack up

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

Lots of times. At the weekend after gigs at the Point, parties and sports events, it's as busy as a Saturday afternoon, as most major cities are in Europe. Yet there's only nitelinks and expensive taxis around after 1am here, and 24/7 transport there. Doesn't add up.



When I was on Red Night Luas services, there was more passenges on them than services earlier in the evening. There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai, so there was no possibility of anti-social behaviour whatsoever. So the myth that all hell breaks loose only after 12.30 doesn't wash with me.

yes, we all agree there should be 24/7 services.

on this thread there are two different arguments being made as to why there isnt. one is that its down to cosy semi state union traditions. thats blown out of the water by the luas. the other is anti-social behaviour, which doesnt add up either.

the reality is that, unlike other cities, dublin really isnt a 24 hour city. A few night clubs, a few burger joints and a few 24 hour shops doesnt cut it in relation to passenger numbers for bueses/luas/dart running all night.

its simple economics. before taxi deregulation there was a massive amount of busses on the nitelink. as soon as one filled up the next one would pull in. thats over. during the boom years there was a decent service on the two luas lines. thats gone too. if there was a profit to be made those services would be running.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

yes, we all agree there should be 24/7 services.

the reality is that, unlike other cities, dublin really isnt a 24 hour city. A few night clubs, a few burger joints and a few 24 hour shops doesnt cut it in relation to passenger numbers for buses/luas/dart running all night.

So what does?

Dublin is a major European city. It's not London Paris or Berlin granted, but it is the main hub of activity in this country, and when there are major public events on at night, the city's transport system struggles to cope, because extra services are not made available to meet clear demand at the time.

Even if Dublin wasn't a 24h city, it is still one of the few capital cities in Europe where public transport on 25.12 does not exist in any form. I can't defend that on any grounds, economic or otherwise.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

So what does?

Dublin is a major European city. It's not London Paris or Berlin granted, but it is the main hub of activity in this country, and when there are major public events on at night, the city's transport system struggles to cope, because extra services are not made available to meet clear demand at the time.

Even if Dublin wasn't a 24h city, it is still one of the few capital cities in Europe where public transport on 25.12 does not exist in any form. I can't defend that on any grounds, economic or otherwise.

you seem to be wanting two things here.

how many major public events are there at night? Concerts in the 02/aviva/croke park would be major events, and you would imagine the number crunchers in BAC/Luas/IE have considered this. Outside of these events, and they are not every weekend for example, there would not be anything like the demand.

As for the 25th December, if you want to go into the city centre and wander around the empty streets on your own, off you go. Why the state should provide a bus and rail service for an almost non existant take up is beyond me.

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

you seem to be wanting two things here.

how many major public events are there at night? Concerts in the 02/aviva/croke park would be major events, and you would imagine the number crunchers in BAC/Luas/IE have considered this. Outside of these events, and they are not every weekend for example, there would not be anything like the demand.

As for the 25th December, if you want to go into the city centre and wander around the empty streets on your own, off you go. Why the state should provide a bus and rail service for an almost non existant take up is beyond me.

The reason the streets are (almost) empty, is because you can't get in or out of them.

Christmas means different things to different people. Some people think it's the biggest period of the year, others simply see it as simply another time of the year, where life goes on.

As for the major events, what about the NYE in College Green? Phoenix Park/Point Depot gigs? Croke Park/Lansdowne Road?? There's plenty on, on a regular basis.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by on the move

The reason the streets are (almost) empty, is because you can't get in or out of them.

Christmas means different things to different people. Some people think it's the biggest period of the year, others simply see it as simply another time of the year, where life goes on.

As for the major events, what about the NYE in College Green? Phoenix Park/Point Depot gigs? Croke Park/Lansdowne Road?? There's plenty on, on a regular basis.

NYE tends to happen once a year. Croke Park/Aviva Gigs are few and far between. Phoenix park even moreso. Point Depot I already mentioned.

To say that "some" people see christmas as the biggest time of the year is a bit odd, I think we can safely put it into the "most" if not "vastly overwhelmingly most" category. But, if you want to call black white just to keep this thread going, off you go.

[on the move]

The point isn't whether events are on once a year or not, the point is when there are events on at all, the transport network schedule is inflexible and what is available is therefore full to bursting. Defending it on "few and far between" grounds is not good enough on the day itself. If you run it, people will use it.

Can't understand that people advocate that public transport should stop on a public transport forum, but there you go. If Greece can run a transport network with all their problems, Ireland can.