Seeking help and advice....Appealing a penalty

[markpb]

Originally Posted by James Howard

However, all of the rights and wrongs are irrelevant. If the NTA contract states zero tolerance, then Irish Rail have no choice but to fine anybody not in possession of a valid ticket.

I'd be really surprised if that was true. It's more likely to say that IR should put in place procedures to minimum fare evasion. I don't think anyone in the NTA is stupid enough to believe fare evasion will ever disappear completely. Here is the contract if anyone is bored on a Friday morning. I skimmed over it and can't find any reference to fare evasion but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

In any case, even if the NTA have come over all draconian on IR, it's still up to IR to inform the customer that multiple return tickets exist so they have the information required to pick the right one. It's not fare evasion unless its deliberate.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by markpb

I'd be really surprised if that was true. It's more likely to say that IR should put in place procedures to minimum fare evasion. I don't think anyone in the NTA is stupid enough to believe fare evasion will ever disappear completely. Here is the contract if anyone is bored on a Friday morning. I skimmed over it and can't find any reference to fare evasion but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

In any case, even if the NTA have come over all draconian on IR, it's still up to IR to inform the customer that multiple return tickets exist so they have the information required to pick the right one. It's not fare evasion unless its deliberate.

Exactly - I looked at the PSO contract too and can't see anything along those lines.

That's why I'm asking Mark Gleeson to tell us where in the contract that this is stated.

[grainne whale]

I love this bit from the contract :
Staff:
'Irish Rail staff will be well presented, friendly, helpful and courteous at all times'.

Quite clearly this is not the case - especially the courteous bit

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

Exactly - I looked at the PSO contract too and can't see anything along those lines.

That's why I'm asking Mark Gleeson to tell us where in the contract that this is stated.

Its in the contract appendix

"Revenue Protection
Report on measures taken to ensure revenue
protection.

Quarterly Report

Percentage of Compliance
"

Exact details are not provided for commercial reasons

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its in the contract appendix

"Revenue Protection
Report on measures taken to ensure revenue
protection.

Quarterly Report

Percentage of Compliance
"

Exact details are not provided for commercial reasons

That does not prescribe how it is to be done, though.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Irish Rail from having a ticket checker on Intercity trains ensuring everyone has a correct ticket, rather than making the entire network a penalty fares area.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

That does not prescribe how it is to be done, though.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Irish Rail from having a ticket checker on Intercity trains ensuring everyone has a correct ticket, rather than making the entire network a penalty fares area.

NTA set the rules and Irish Rail's funding is dependent on this. Irish Rail has indicated to the NTA that it will operate a national penalty fare policy to meet its obligation in contract.

Irish Rail is obliged to report quarterly on revenue protection matters.

The issue is not the policy its how edge cases are handled. We can argue all day but in this specific case the passenger did not hold a valid ticket, that fact is not denied by anyone.

The issue was the act of purchase which falls outside the penalty fares procedure per Rail Safety Act 2005

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

NTA set the rules and Irish Rail's funding is dependent on this. Irish Rail has indicated to the NTA that it will operate a national penalty fare policy to meet its obligation in contract.

Irish Rail is obliged to report quarterly on revenue protection matters.

The issue is not the policy its how edge cases are handled. We can argue all day but in this specific case the passenger did not hold a valid ticket, that fact is not denied by anyone.

The issue was the act of purchase which falls outside the penalty fares procedure per Rail Safety Act 2005

I understand all of that - and with regard to the specific incident, I've already said that the OP has unfortunately broken the rules, and there isn't an awful lot that can be done.

However, as a general comment, I think that implementing a national penalty fare area is the wrong way to protect revenue - I think it will cause more problems and issues than it solves, and lead to more of incidents such as this where there is an element of doubt.

Far better from both a revenue policy and from a customer service perspective to have a checker on board each Intercity train, as you end up with everyone having a valid ticket, and you have someone on board that passengers can speak to directly.

Are RUI saying that they prefer a national penalty fare policy to having a checker on each Intercity train?

[Mark Gleeson]

Firstly everyone should have a ticket, if they do then there is no issue. Issue only arises if you have no ticket.

The question is do you want to issue a normal priced ticket to someone found without a ticket or do you penalise people who have no ticket where they should have had a ticket

First option is pointless as there is no risk in not buying a ticket.

Irish Rail's policy is consistent any service, anywhere nationwide which is great compared to the UK where its a nightmare to know what the rules are.

[Thomas Ralph]

Ah it's pretty much the same either way to be honest. Got no ticket? Meet a ticket checker and you get sold a ticket. Meet a revenue inspector and you get a penalty fare (much lower than Ireland as currently £20 or double the fare from where you started to the next station, although it's going up to £50 or four times the fare shortly with a 50% discount for prompt payment), or reported for prosecution. Penalty fares are only charged on some trains but prosecution is possible in any case.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

If the passenger has sight problems they would of had a pass.

Not every person with sight problems will have a pass, e.g. they might not be entitled to a pass on various grounds or be severely long-sighted and unable to read without glasses.

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Not every person with sight problems will have a pass, e.g. they might not be entitled to a pass on various grounds or be severely long-sighted and unable to read without glasses.

ok fair point however your clutching at straws!

You should always double check what you get.