29K still on Sligo and not even cleaned
 

Just had this from a friend who seldom travels on IE but is an employee of a UK train operator:

"On 1305 to Sligo 8 car 29 still with last weeks newspapers on the floor. Not good at all"


Just what is the problem with putting 22s on the Sligos? I'll bet you'll see one at Docklands this evening!!!!!!

Couldn't manage an ICR for the 1336 to Rosslare either, 4 car 2900 this afternoon.

I think that Rosslare is always a 29. I have made several random visits to Dublin in the last few months and seen that train or its return working as a 29

Nope, used to be a 22k set, but once the summer came it turned into a 29, presumably as a measure towards the increased numbers during the summer on the Rosslare line, you can fit a lot more standing on a 29 than a 22.

I think all Sligo services are 22 apart from s Sunday return service. Could of being a fault with a set and a replacement wasn't available to allow an on time departure.

What is with Iarnrod Eireann, now no offense to the company I hop eto one day work with them but, Newspapers from all around Wexford in 2010 telling its customers about the new trains but when someone who has not traveled the line awaiting to see the 22k only to experience a 29k commuter train No wonder Rail levels are low on this this line.


Sligo and Wexford/Rosslare trains are both labelled InterCity why do commuter trains that operate quick 40min journeys to Drogheda and Maynooth operate on 3hour journeys. It can't be hard to put 22K InterCity trains on their rightly labelled named route. I've seen 22k on the Docklands service and Pearse to Drogheda service. Its bizarre how someone that high up can get it so mixed up so easy. 'what is the problem'



I have noticed this with IE, The company nearly always operate the lunch time 13.30 as a 29k commuter train with the amount of passengers using it to Gorey mostly(Courtown) and because 2x22k sets don't fit or 29k x 2 what have IE left to do except let passengers stand the journey 1hr45min to Gorey.

On a different topic but related to the Rosslare line I had a woman talking to me today who had booked an online seat to Gorey from Dublin and I told her the line doesn't have an online system. She was treated in the most outrage attitude from what she told me. She was told when arriving at Connolly that there was no seat reservation for this line but ended up paying the actual journey price. It seems to me that InterCity servies from Connolly are not the same as Heuston bar the enterprise to Sligo and Rosslare. What can we do!!! We know the lines are good but IE are not taking its advantage to its full level !!!!!

Until IE finally fits Selective Door Opening to the 22K fleet, permitting 6 car operation even to stations where short platforms will not meet all doors, there's only so much can be done if the capacity of a 3 car can't meet demand given that the single track won't permit much if any increase in services, especially when one considers the additional driver cost will swallow much of any additional revenue.

But when is this going to happen???? Nobody seems to know! Can anyone find this out?

Maybe the NTA should apply the proverbial boot in the rear and force Irish Rail to devise a solution. Is selective door opening really the only answer ? As on other lines a 3 car ICR is not able to deal with the busier services while not many non commuter services will fill a full six car set. Maybe dropping two or three six-car sets down to four cars and using the surplus vehicles to create further 4-car sets might be an idea worth considering and be useful on other routes as well.

If neither 4-car ICRS or SDO can be implemented then perhaps the NTA should insist that where services are consistenly overcrowded, then either the timetable should be modified to provide additional services or additional staff should be allocated to ensure that passnegers do not have access to the rear vehicle of a six coach formation. Obviously the latter would involve the safety quango, but it is simply not acceptable that short haul suburban units are substituted on Intercity services simply to provide extra floor space for passengers to stand or indeed sit !

This seems to be a daily occurrence. The 17:00 from Sligo was operated by an 8-car 29k on Friday. I presume this was the 13:05 down train returning. 8 cars seems a little extravagant for either of these services - are they really that busy? Certainly the 17:00 from Sligo wasn't terribly busy at Edgeworthstown.

1305 had about 270 passengers leaving Connolly.

That is incredible business for a mid-day service on the Sligo line considering that the are coming from what was about 4 or 5 daily return trips 5 years ago. But it sounds like this service is running with a 29k for capacity reasons as 270 is well beyond the capacity of a 3 car 22k and the 6 car set is busy doing runs out to Maynooth.

I'm surprised that Irish Rail haven't just said they would all be grand standing to Mullingar.

Iniskeen has suggested paring down a some 6 car 22k sets to 4 car and presumably using the displaced intermediate vechicles to increase 3 car sets to 4 car.

The problem with this is that 6-car sets are too few in number and there are loads of 3-car sets, with the result that lots of trains routinely run as two 3-car formations with resulting problems for catering and ticket inspection. A better solution might be to remove the intermediate vehicles from (say) six 3-car sets and re-form them into six two car sets plus six 4- car sets. The 2-car sets woiuld be fine for the WRC, some Kerry line services and Limerick Junction shuttles, as well as for occasional strengthening of 3-car trains. The 4-cars would ease the problems on the DSE. You might even manage 5-car trains on the DSE (3+2). It would in principle be possible to have 22k trains with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 cars (subject to platform constraints).

That sounds like a sensible way to go forward but I guess that Irish Rail would resist this because of the loss of flexibility.

Another possibility might be to run a service as far as either Mullingar or Longford at 12:05 or 14:05 that would spread the load a bit given that most of it only going that far. A 12:05 in particular would get back early enough to do an evening rush run.

Once you get around all the technical issues. Its not possible to do any chainging of the sets and the centre carrages are important on the sets.

That is a pretty dumb restriction to end up with but I'm not surprised. The wisdom of locking yourself into running all your inter-city trains as multiples of 3 cars on a small railway for 30 years is somewhat suspect especially where the Rosslare line can't take 6 cars on a platform.

Although I suppose that at the time Irish Rail were of the opinion that they could go back to government and ask for another for few hundred million to deal with changing circumstances.

There are restrictions but you can have a 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 coach fixed set if you want.

It requires the right type of intermediate coaches (they ain't all the same, two types) and a certification test for braking and to validate all the systems works

In these parts they run 10 and 12 car commuter consists and the guard positions himself at the last door to be on the platform and presses a button where everything to one side opens and the other shut. There is often construction work limiting platform length so it's frequently used.

Why was 22033 taken out of service after it was running with 5 carrages.

So the intermediate coaches would all be the same on the 3 car sets so if it was to happen it would require the 6 car sets to be changed around to allow different formations and as two driving end coaches can't be put together then its just a waste as its taking sets out of service as a result just to benefit a few services.

In regaurd to Rosslare services I think an extra service for the summer lets say May-Sep a few days a week (thu,fri,sat) should be interduced and all other services should not be stopping in stations like Bray, Graystones etc as they have the DART and I would guess that capacity issues would not be such a problem but this may not be possible with the DART schedule etc.

There may have been other damage that could have been repaired in Portlaoise or Inchicore.

A two-car set may lack things like sand boxes for dealing with leaf fall. There is other equipment that is on some cars, but not others.

A 6-car and a 3-car could be changed about to make a 5-car and a 4-car.

Notably, while the fixed consists are a constraint in one way, it means that pretty much any train can go anywhere on any service, thereby creating it's own flexibility.

The ICR specification defines two intermediate coach types. B and B1, to the passenger they are the same but under the floor B1 has sanding equipment. (All A coaches have sanding gear)

A 3 car set has no B1 coaches, a 6 coach set has a B1 coach

My understanding, 4/5/6 coach requires at least one B1 coach, a 7/8/9 set would need 2 B1 coaches

A two coach in theory is possible but likely the train management system wouldn't understand that setup, but the seating capacity in that mode would be very low

Obviously its possible to make a B into a B1 given the parts, but no ability to change the fleet exists currently as there are only 15 B1 coaches and 15 6 car sets

So, in effect there is no flexibility at all. You can only have 15 sets greater than 3 cars and there are already 15 6-car sets. The usual brilliant forward planning there from Irish Rail.

The fixed consists are hardly flexible if you can't send a 6-car set to Rosslare and there is no way of making up a set that will fit on platforms. There is also another constraint in the some of the 6-car sets can't be used on certain services because of the lack of catering and "first class". Why exactly some services (over 3 hours long) don't deserve catering and first class is beyond me, but that is the way it is.

AFAIK there was no problems with running the 5 coaches except that it did not have safety/regulatory approval or something like that

Since it still had a B1 coach in the consist

The regulatory approval is required since this setup was not formally tested, so while in theory it works fine you need to verify everything from the ground up

Unlike the UK at least you can actually mash up an ICR into any set you want if you fit sanding gear, the voyager units not every coach has a compressor so you need to have one to move, all ICR coaches are standalone unlike the earlier 26/27/28 coaches

How did the railway manage before the modern era of regulatory approval. Imagine the fun in years gone bt if every possible train make-up had to be pre-tested. Given all the possible combinations/permutations of locomotive type and trailing equipment the country could have become prosperous from the stimulus to the economy generated by the wages of all the regulators and testers.

Probably time to loosen the regulatory strangehold in favour of a bit of common sense.

Whatever about Irish Rail's charmed existence since Buttevant, our sample size here it a bit too small to draw meaningful statistics from. But if you look at the experience across the water, they seem to have had a dramatic reduction in serious accidents in the era of regulatory approval.

Personally given how much time I spend commuting I am quite happy that somebody is trying to keep Irish Rail honest even if there are a few extra hoops to jump through.

As an engineer, it never fails to amaze me how seemingly unrelated changes can bring a system to its knees. I wouldn't dream of changing the configuration of a system and not test it properly before putting it in front of customers.

It should be well within Irish Rail's competence to re-configure and test a re-formed railcar set. Yes, of course, trial it, but comparatively simple changes should not involve months (or years) of complicated and costly interaction with regulatory authorities.

We're talking about a solution which really only applies to the Wicklow line though. Most of the other lines ex Dublin are optimised for at least 6x22 by having at least one platform of 170+m, and the branches for 90m/3x22. Is it really worth messing the fleet about to achieve this on one line, when the technology exists to add a big capacity boost to the line in the form of 6 car trains if only it would be fitted?

The Rosslare line is just one of the drivers towards re-forming the ICR fleet. The other driver is to provide more flexible train capacity options. In particular there are many workings where a 3-car ICR is too tight on capacity while a six car set is way too generous.

In respect of regulation and safety, James correctly highlights the downward trend in railway accidents (passengers, staff and others) although this trend was well established decades before the era of the modern safety industry. Society needs to ensure that the costs, infexibilities and inefficiencies of over regulation are balanced against common sense, otherwise there is the danger that disproportionate and inappropriate regulation will greatly increase costs and render some railway operations impractical.

But everyone here thinks class 221s are sh1te :)

+1 on that but I do see where Inniskeen is coming from in regard to 3 car capacity being to tight and 6 car to much however I don't think changing the fleet formations is a good idea because in most cases (apart from Rosslare) a 3 car set is perfect for services and the only serous problems with loads come on Fridays, Saturdays and maybe Sundays. On a side note the 13.05 to Sligo is it lightly to be changed to a 6 car over the next few weeks with students back or has it always being a 3 car set.

why is IE still using 29ks on the sligo service now that the full 22k fleet has arrived??

It seems like at least part of the issue on the Sligo line is the lack of a 6 car set to run the 13:05 service which is too busy for a 3 car set. The only real solution for this problem is for more capacity whether it is provided by a 6-car 22k or by adding an extra service to Mullingar or Longford at 12:05 or 14:05 which would be acceptably provided with a 29k.

How big a deal is it to extend platforms - is it really that expensive? It sounds like this would be a better solution than hacking a selective door opening solution. If SDO is something that only Irish Rail required, I could easily see this being more expensive than extending platforms.

i agree, or has the stations been extended to its max.
I'm surprised to hear that alot of people are still using the Rosslare line. Wexford bus have a journey time from Gorey to Dublin of 1hr10mins and now Bus Eireann are giving slashing times from Gorey to Dublin to 1hr20mins. The train time for the journey is 1hr40+mins. The morning service 05.55 takes 2hours.

The SDO would be a good thing just takes forever to actually happen.

i thought that 6 car sets were used on the sligo line. if that it the case then the platforms cant be an issue. it seems to be the availabiliy of enough 6 car sets, which should not be an issue either as all the 22k fleet is here and there is talk of an over supply as it is.

The Sligo line has no problems with 6-car sets as they lengthened all the platforms when doing the re-signalling about 5 years ago.

They reliably use 6 car 22Ks for the 0545 & 0700 up-trains and for the 1705 and 1905 down-trains. Very occasionally, the 0545 is made up of 2x3 cars but it is usually a 6 car unit. They use 3-car sets for the 0705 and 0905 down trains which probably gets them back in action for the 1100 and 1300 up trains. Beyond that I don't know.

For the last couple of days, the 1700 up-train (and presumably the 1305 down-train) has been a 22k but I only say it out of the corner of my eye as we blew through Killucan so I didn't notice how many cars. I'll try to keep an eye out this evening.

The big problem on the Sligo line is the very low traffic past Longford which makes 6 cars highly uneconomic. There would be a lot of merit in the idea of using more 3 car trains and doubling up on the frequency to Longford, but there really aren't enough crossing points between Maynooth and Mullingar to support this. Still an 8-car 29k has to be even less economic than a 6-car 22k particular when it is doing the 17:00 from Sligo with about 50 passengers.

The 11.05 is alos a 3 car as was todays 13.05 which had a lot of empty seats when I passed it at 12.55.

I could be wrong but the 16.00 and 15.05 down services are also 6 car sets which allows the 19.00 return and 09.00 the following mornimg be a 6 set.

The 0905 yesterday morning was a 29k which probably means the 1300 from Sligo was as well. I think they use the same train for the 1805 to Longford which was also a 29k which was a bit of a pain for me as I had some work to finish up which is a bit difficult on the restricted tables on the 29k.

is there a potential for there to be two three cars operating to longford, one stops there, the top three go onto sligo, comes back, rejoins the other three and then its a six car from longford on the return??

It would be an option if they had the need to do it in the middle of the day but it wouldn't be an option for the busiest trains - the 1705/1905 down and the 0545/0700 up as this would mean storing 6 cars in Longford overnight and there are currently two trains stabled in Longford overnight as is.

Edgeworthstown would be another option for trains meeting during the day as this is the crossing point for most trains and it has a suitable siding for holding a train. However, security would be a problem overnight.

There are probably all kinds of reasons why this probably wouldn't work - the most obvious being that you would need a driver in both sections of the train for the joining / splitting operation.