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[article] Proposal to bring train journey times between cities below two hours
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© Irish Times 2011 |
What a typically dim piece from Tim O'Brien. It is obvious that there is huge pressure to cut the IE subvention, both current and capital and this is part of the lobbying: ask for a lot more money and you might just not get your budget cut as much.
I love the statement near the end where T O'B says: "The company said its long-term goal would be to reduce speeds further, ..." Marvellous Freudian slip that, given the record of speed deterioration on IE. Someone should tell the guy that Dublin-Cork was timetables for 2h 20m ages ago, before comparatively recent heavy investment in signalling, locomotives and rolling stock |
2:20 was once per week non stop. Currently there is a 2 stop in 2:30 time twice a day which is comparable. I've experienced the 'fast' train and we were consistently 5-10 mph over the published speed limit most of the way. Not acceptable in the safety era we live in. How you average 80mph from Thurles with a 90mph limit just wan't going to work and it didn't a lot of the time as it ran late
The official best time is 2:07 which involved hitting 120+ mph, cracking a few brick arch bridges in Cork and structural cracks to the locomotives Much of the track laid in the 1976-1984 period is life expired at this point, 25-30 years is the accepted life span, so money is needed to sort it out. In reliability terms Dublin Cork is miles better now compared to any time in the past, trains run to time, the lights and air con work and there are 3 times more trains than 20 years ago The amount sought is small, labour intensive and is spread around the country so it ticks a lot of boxes. |
I readily concede that overall service frequency and quality is much better now, and of course the once-a-week time of 2.20 was always a bit unrepresentative.
I also agree that funds are needed for track replacement/improvement on Dublin-Cork, but the way in which IE seem to have just woken up to the threat posed by the motorways sounds pathetic. The Dublin-Cork replacement/upgrade should have been pushed much more energatically 5 years ago. I would think that in terms of politics and p.r. that a project which emphasises higher speeds might not seem as deserving as what is essentially the same project with emphasis on maintaining a piece of infractsructure which is of major importance. |
The upgrade was first pitched to the CIE board in September 2007. I know who made the pitch and it was for a far wider ranging upgrade to 125mph. That was carried by the media
Part of the work is already underway, 7 more route miles at 100mph is now available and more will follow bit by bit. Major upgrade at Lisduff which will lift speeds as well |
The 06:15 did it in 2 1/2 hours this morning, despite leaving Cork a couple of minutes late because of ticketing problems, speed restrictions at Buttevant and Kilmallock, and getting caught behing a slower moving train just before the 4-track section.
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They are realy just taking the 7 mins off the time between Newbridge and Heuston. |
I suspect a good portion of the Dublin-Waterford improvement would come from Dublin-Cork improvements before Cherryville.
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The proposed investment is principally
Hazelhatch - Portarlington - Athlone/Limerick Junction All routes Heuston get a benefit |
When they talked about taking 25 mins off Dublin-Cork and 20 mins off Dublin-Tralee, I thought that must mean they were going to finally look at Cork-Mallow, which much be the slowest long stretch of line between Dublin and Cork. Admittedly, it's also the hilliest and most expensive to improve.
If they did that, there would be no harm in looking at the constantly postponed new stations along the line there at the same time, but that's probably wishful thinking on my part. |
Well if 25 minutes is off Cork and 20 off Tralee it would imply 5 minutes off Cork Mallow
Some fairly minor work on the throat of Cork station, tunnel etc would massively reduce the time taken |
This old chestnut again :rolleyes:
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I see statements like "a lot of money for only x minutes" in various projects and it irritates me because it assumes the perspective of occasional passengers and does not indicate how much money it would be okay to spend to get that x minutes.
First of all, for commuters, that's 2*5*x. A 7 minute improvement (for example) over a journey gives regular travellers an hour of their lives not stuck on a train - two entire days over the course of a business year. Secondly accelerating a train by that amount of time can allow it to squeeze ahead of trains it would otherwise be stuck behind. Thirdly, it's not just passenger hours - it's driver hours. Waterford-Dublin is 16 sectors a day so a 7 minute saving works out to just shy of 2 hours of driver time saved daily and if all of the 7 minutes is north of Carlow the saving can be applied to 20 sectors a day, not 16. That doesn't include deadheading to/from Laois Train Care if applicable or if the freight services on the line can take advantage of a higher speed limit (especially if it is a raise of a 5mph PSR to say 25mph or whatever). Now, that 7 minute gain isn't always realisable on all routes because of slot restrictions but my point is merely that small improvements when counted over the course of a day or more's operations can add up to quite a bit. The question is therefore what is the correct threshold in mEuro/minute where a speed increase passes a cost/benefit test. |
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Incidentally in the 1990s, it was routine to run from Mallow to Cork in 19½ to 21 minutes - current performance is really slow in comparison. Given that so little has been produced in respect of improved journey times despite massive investment in track, signalling, level crossings, bridges and rolling stock, I am would need some convincing that anything worthwhile would result from even more "upgrading". Remember that journey times of under two hours to Limerick and under 2'-20" to Cork were routinely achieved in the past. Before spending even more money it needs to be explained why this permformance can can not be delivered right now. Incidentally the following permitted speed improvements have recently been introduced on the Cork line with no effect on advertised journey times.
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So us poor sods on the Sligo line and those on the Rosslare line will have to continue to put up with the pathetically slow journey times. The morning Sligo express barely manages a 40MPH average between Edgeworthstown and Dublin despite only having 4 stops.
I would like to see how they propose getting Dublin - Sligo down to two hours when replacing the track, rolling stock, signalling and most of the level crossings over the last 15 years or so has resulted in pretty much the exact same journey times (some are marginally worse now). |
There is a series of restrictions approaching Cork which brings things to 60mph 4 miles out when in fact it should be 60 at the tunnel mouth, that makes a big difference. Dublin bound the limits are actually more generous and are in most cases rise faster than the trains ability to accelerate due the stiff hill
Combined with the excessive padding minimum 5 minutes to be saved inbound. Curragh curves were 80 mph in the past so no gain there. 80 through Portarlington appeared in late 2007 and is key to the 2:30 timings. The Hazelhatch Cherry Orchard section offsets the go slow in the Hazelhatch Kildare section which is dug up in places currently. There is more work to be done that when an increase in speed appears it is killed by temporary restrictions elsewhere. Lisduff will be dug up shortly so any gain elsewhere will be wiped out. Limerick Junction is great on paper but since most trains stop there the time saved is minimal. In some places the track is capable of more but the signaling restricts the top speed, so Ballybrophy is still 70mph, the signal spacing looks a little tight to me for faster. There is a need for much greater coordination of the works to ensure minimum delay and maximum benefit The 2011 timetable did shave several minutes off many times, not enough but it does deliver punctuality, in 2009 10-15 minute delays were the norm which led to regular problems. Punctuality comes first The 2:30 time currently offered is a much greater achievement than the once off 2:20 timing of the past, particularly as the 2:30 timing is achieved with absolute adherence to the speed limits on a much busier railway. Quickest way to see savings is to bring the train every two hours to Limerick back and to run non stop to Thurles from Dublin on all Cork trains, and also fewer calls at Limerick Junction then you could bring most Dublin Cork trains to 2:35-2:45. The average time to Cork has fallen significantly (and thats what really actually matters to passengers) in recent times as the 75 mph stock has gone to the scrapyard. There is progress but the pace of progress is not sufficient |
Is a Cork-bound platform in Limerick Junction completely off the radar?
If it was put in place, it would allow Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork trains to be in the station at the same time, which would hugely improve Cork-Limerick timings. While I know that's not a big priority it seems a very easy to implement one. It would also mean that late running trains would not delay each other there. I've often wondered what the history of the bizarre layout at Limerick Junction is. It's a bit of a disaster for simultaneous usage and for Waterford bound trains. Regarding the idea of not stopping between Thurles and Dublin on Dublin-Cork trains, it would have to allow for people between Dublin and Thurles to make a quick connection. There always seems to be a decent number of people get on the train to Cork from Port Laoise in particular. |
Dr Cian O'Callaghan at NIRSA in Maynooth has a blog post on it:
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The continued mantra of drop the prices and more will travel has no basis in accounting. If you charged everyone 10 euro single to Cork and filled every seat on every train the net taking would be less than current so thats clearly not viable. What is needed is a restructuring of the fares to even out the inconsistencies as they are really pushing passenger away |
I wonder to what extent if any more restrictive safety practices are responsible for the fact that the investment made over the years has not reduced times, or can we blame it all on poor utilisation by IE? For instance the Nenagh branch used to be cleared for 70mph - presumably to get back to 70mph now the branch would have to be in much better shape track and signalling wise than the previous occasion?
I concur with Mark G on fares - I would much rather IE demonstrate a higher quality product at a reasonable price than race to the bottom - a race they can never win. For that they will need to add customer facing staff back into the system and make those they hire get out and face the public rather than hiding in First etc. Keeping fares reasonable is about getting costs controlled and one thing on my mind is to get IE completely focused on the lines they are carrying passengers on. It is madness that in addition to keeping trains moving that Dick and Co are notionally responsible for alignments like North Kerry, Claremorris-Collooney or that bridge outside Navan that was struck recently (Kingscourt line I think). A separate body spawned from NTA or OPW should take custody of such trackage/lands with a remit to maintain their structures, guard their boundaries and keep their costs off IE's books. Even if the costs are nominal in the scheme of things, the fact that the IE apparatus had to respond to that bridge strike on a line which hasn't earned them a euro in years (did it ever - was it still punts then?) is unacceptable when their finances are coming under severe pressure. |
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Sorry Mark - I misinterpreted what you meant by the throat of the Cork station, I assumed you were taking about the track immediately south of the tunnel. While the final few miles of the southbound line into Cork are indeed subject to a gradually reducing speed limit this is most unlikely to be significantly altered as it ensures that trains approach Cork station in a safe manner consistent with a severe downgrade leading to the sharply curved track through the station. The restrictions at the Curragh were initially eased in 2005, subsequently re-imposed and then eased again. Will the work at Lisduff you mention really result in an improvement in line speed given that the small fortune spent at Ballybrophy in last few years has yielded a speed limit of 70mph - less than that which applied at the same place in the 1990s. The signalling at Ballybrophy imposes absolutely no restriction on line speed - signal spacing and controls are designed for at least 90mph. Limerick Junction is another example of a shedload of money spent on track and signalling without any improvement in line speed (apart from through Grange and Emly). The speed limit on the main running lines remains at 25mph compared to 60mph in the 1990s. The previously achieved Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin 2hr-20 minute non-stop timing I mentioned was not a one-off and was routinely achieved or bettered. It lasted for up to 10 years and the sectional timings formed the basis for scheduling the principal services on the line with end to end journey times depending on the stopping pattern. Given the record of under-performance in recent years I am really unconvinced that yet another tranche of investment will lead to worthwhile improvements. |
I believe with minimal improvements it should be easily possible to cover Dublin-Cork in 2hours 30 minutes with three stops at Mallow, Thurles and Limerick Junction. This morning the 0730 from Cork could have done that timing with minutes to spare. The bigger issue is services into Connolly which would be exacerbated if the line to the Airport proceeds (which is a sensible proposition in every other respect).
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But yeah it is a messy layout and it would be simple enough to add another platform. also how the Clonmel train has to go out on to the Dublin-Cork line to crossover. |
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The proposed link to Dublin airport would have tremendous potential if accommpanied by additional running lines between Clongriffin and Connolly - an airport express taking about 12 minutes could be reliably delivered along with a quatum inmprovement in journey times and reliability to all locations north of Clongriffin. The current proposal merely ticks the airport link box and, in my view, is most unlikely to deliver anything like the claimed uplift in DART usage and most likely to depress usage of longer distance services. |
Its been 70mph through Ballybrophy as long as the records I have, at least going back to 1994, all the track and points have been replaced so we are left with either a signaling restriction or some form of restricted clearance issue. I have the signaling diagrams buried somewhere which could reveal the true reason.
The revised Limerick Junction costs 400,000 euro less a year to operate in signalperson costs alone. It was life expired and required replacement on safety grounds. There were several incidents there in the past due the track condition and large parts of the station were signed out of use on safety grounds. The design specification is for 80mph the same as the mid 1980's. The safety regime has tightened up significantly which means restrictions are heavily enforced, and cascade restrictions are in place on all major speed restictions. The hourly Dublin Cork service combined with the fact all trains now run at 100 mph when in the past it was less than half really eats the track which means there is now a large backlog of works needed. 2:35 with 3 stops should be the target in the short term, that should be delieverable by end of 2011 once the current phase of works Kildare - Hazelhatch, Lisduff and Portlaoise are completed. There are major inconsistencies in the times taken for a journey with some trains making similar numbers of stops being up to 15 minutes slower than the fastest. Its fairly easy add a platform at Limerick Junction but the best solution is more direct trains to Limerick which would reduce the number of stops at Limerick Junc The best time non stop possible would be 2:05 allowing 5 minutes recovery which would fit with Irish Rail's proposed 2:20 with limited stops. This is the fastest proposed 100 mph running time and faster than that previously suggested. |
I wish they would run direct trains again. There was a time Limerick Junction shuttle was optional and direct trains served Thurles in the morning. I think them 2700s should be exported abroad and scrapped. Uncomfortable noisy things. I notice the track makes a unbearable (like finger nail pulled down along a chalkboard) noise in Templemore, im guessing that part of the line needs work
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As for selling the 2700s - given the inability of IE to find homes for the non-pushpull 201s or the Mark 3s and that the 8200 DARTs are still on the books, I wouldn't count on much enthusiasm from the rail sector for more IE leavings. |
Realistically we want to preserve all the lines but Dublin-Cork-Dublin probably carries in a day what Waterford-Limerick and Limerick-Ballybrophy carry in a year. With strongly supported inter-city services all is possible so it's an absolute priority to accelerate the timings of the main inter-city services. The service on the Cork and Belfast lines are very good but end to end times are far too slow. The objective has got to be two hours to Cork and 90 minutes to Belfast; and then two hours to Limerick, Waterford and Galway. It's harder to achieve on single track lines but must be made to work. Limerick Junction is an anachronism in the 21st century; it's simply unbelievable that a second platform has not been put in place. The cost would be minimal! It is still too slow on approach to Heuston despite the separation of suburban and inter-city traffic. So much could be achieved with relatively little spend.
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The 2800s are, in my view, the best trains from the Commuter pool in terms of on-board comfort. Though there is at least one poster on here who might disagree with this. That having been said, this isn't much comfort to someone faced with 2700s. :o |
Destructix - Limerick shuttle with only one pushpull DVT still notionally available (6101 I think)? Not happening, and neither is a shuttle scenario where you need an EGV and a loco running around. If they wouldn't return some PP Mark 3s to service when the six car 22Ks derailed and the two three cars were scrapped with a resulting shortfall in available stock, they aren't going to now.
As for reducing train journey times (i.e. the topic) is there any likelihood of Ennis-Limerick times being made more competitive within even a thin funding envelope? |
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There is a recurring issue of heavy speed restrictions approaching terminuses.
Limerick, Cork and Waterford are very slow on approach due to life expired signaling and track |
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The Mk3 option was great until Irish Rail managed to get its hands on 51 new Intercity Railcars after providing a financial case which showed over 15 years the ICR option was cheaper than retaining some Mk3 coaches. The problem was the gap between the Mk3's being withdrawn and the extra coaches arriving.
A fully refurbished Mk3 coach would cost 250-300k but only have 10-15 years life. The push pull control cars cannot be upgraded to 100mph without massive expense In a Dublin Limerick stop start race the ICR wins on both fuel and time. In a non stop dash there is little between them, ICR slightly faster but Mk3/201 cheaper on diesel. Irish Rail's fleet reliability stacks up well in comparison to elsewhere, its certainly well ahead of comparable UK trains of a similar age and up 4 times better than Belfast for equipment from the same factory. Its far from the weakest link, the ICR fleet even in its very early days was ahead of the Mk3/201 fleet combination. This brings us to the great conundrum of Irish Rail, if the trains are up to 4 times more reliable than elsewhere why is the service still crap? |
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You are correct about Ballybrophy, speed limit was actually 60mph until about 1986 then raised to 70mph (not 80 mph as I thought) following installation of CWR on hardwood sleepers. In my book it is extremely disappointing that despite a hugely expensive and comprehensive relay in the last few years, the line limit remains a very conservative 70 mph. As regards Dublin/Cork timings, the fastest services offered in the 1990s were actually scheduled to complete the journey in 2hrs-17 mins. For years the non-stop journey time between Dublin and Thurles was 69 minutes - this was achieved with no less reliabity than the current 78 minutes. Taking 1993 as an example the 0730 to Cork made 4 stops - Portlaoise, Thurles, Limerick Junction and Mallow and arrived in Cork at 1005. The present 0700 makes the same stops but is not scheduled to arrive in Cork until 0950. In 1993 there wa no 100mph running, the speed limit through the Curragh was 70 mph, the speed limit through Portarlington was 60 mph, there was an 80 mph speed limit at Coolowley, Grange and Emly level crossings. In addition the maximum speed between Killarney Junction and Cork was 65mph. These timings were achieved with 071 class locomotives hauling up to nine Mk3 coaches versus today's more powerful 201 class locomotives hauling/pushing a maximum of 8 Mk3 coaches. Also we have been here before. The 1993 Operation program for Transport promised the following journey times to be achieved by the bracketed dates. The best scheduled times shown are the fastest achieved in one or both directions on the routes concerned since 1971. Dublin/Belfast 1hr-35 mins (1996), best scheduled 1hr-45 mins in 1999/2000 Dublin/Cork 2hr-15 mins (1996), best scheduled 2hr-17 mins in 1999/2000 Dublin/Limerick 1hr-50 mins (1996), best scheduled 1hr-58 mins in 1998/1999 Dublin/Tralee 3hr-15 mins (1999), best achieved 3hr-35 mins in 1988/89 Dublin/Waterford 1hr-50 mins (1998), best achieved 2hr-00 mins (Current) Dublin/Westport 3hr-10 mins (1999), best achieved 3hr-17 mins in 2004/5 Dublin/Galway 2hr-15 mins (1999), best achieved 2hr-15 mins (Current) Incidentally the much maligned Nenagh line hosted a service from Limerick in 1988/89 at 0810 arriving in Heuston at 1035 serving Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan, Roscrea, Ballybrophy and Portlaoise. Running time from Portlaoise was 45 minutes for this service - fastest today is 51 minutes on a massively upgraded infrastructure with 100 mph maximum speed over a significant portion of the line, 80 mph through Portarlington and the Curragh, new signalling, improved fencing and virtually no accommodation crossings. I would be more impressed if Irish Rail leveraged investment already made and smartened up it operations, removed gratuitous timetable conflicts, replaced unnecessary self serving timetable padding with modest recovery times, reduced station dwell times and took advantage of the high performance (rapid acceleration and braking) of its current Intercity fleets. Further investment might then be appropriate based on proven performance rather than yet more potenially hollow promises. |
How many of you are now thinking about using the motorways full time from now on?
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Has any of this work started or being completed?
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Some track has been re-laid with a heavier rail - the difference is marked.
Limerick Junction is getting new signalling - I don't think it is in effect yet, but much of the physical work has been done. The Kildare Route Project is done from Cherry Orchard to Hazelhatch, but Cherry Orchard-Inchicore and Hazelhatch-Cherryville are needed to fully avail of that. More level crossings and bridges will need work, most track needs to be re-laid on Cork-Dublin, which is the oldest of the the continuously welded rail and no doubt there will be other improvements needed like drainage and fencing. There are no level crossings left from Thurles to Dublin or Mallow to Cork, but there are 2 Thurles-Limerick Junction, 5 Limerick Junction-Charleville and another 7 Charleville-Mallow. Most other lines have much higher numbers of LCs. Click on "Features" and "Level Crossings" here: http://new.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=119&n=157 On Dublin-Belfast all the LCs are north of the border. |
As a more realistic medium term goal, it would be good to get the timings to 85 mins from Dublin to Limerick Junction, 30 mins from Limerick Junction to Mallow and 25 minutes from Mallow to Cork.
In conjunction with an extra platform in Limerick Junction, it would mean you could arrange to have Dublin-Cork, Cork-Dublin and connecting trains in both Mallow and Limerick Junction at the same time as each other. That would provide some operational efficiencies and provide the following as somewhat realist targets. Dublin-Cork 2h 20 Dublin-Killarney 2h 45 Dublin-Limerick 1h 50 Cork-Limerick 1h 20 Cork-Killarney 1h 15 |
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