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[Article] DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers
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http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-2635349.html |
this was coming since in one of his replies to PQ's in the Dail, Minister Varadkar mentioned a DART to the Airport in passing. Its the little things you have to look out for.
interesting line - "there would be no need to buy extra trains" - hopefully this is in the context of DART2 and DART Underground and not otherwise. This crosses Metro North off Varadkars beauty contest, still leaves DART Underground fighting Luas interconnecter. |
No reason why this can't be extended to Swords and perhaps even onto Ashbourne in the longer term.
Swords and the airport were always the big selling points for Metro North. The case for Ballymun and DCU was no better than the case for many other rail projects and probably couldn't have justified the extra money. I suppose the question becomes about the capacity of the Northern Line and it may be necessary to rexamine the idea of Howth-Howth Junction being a connection rather than a direct destination as a consequence. |
The no new trains is simply achieved by killing the direct Howth service and heavily cutting back on Malahide and using the surplus in the current fleet. Clearly that is not acceptable as Malahide can fill an 8 coach DART to standing several times an hour
It is not a runner unless 4 tracks are provided across the northside and indeed the interconnector tunnel is in place also. In time terms the 748 bus can make it from Dublin Airport to Connolly station in under 25 minutes, best the DART could do (without 4 tracks) is 27-30 minutes, with 4 tracks 18 minutes. Irish Rail's plans clearly indicate non stop Connolly Airport with 4 tracks The assessment (2004/5 ish) quoted 350-450 million depending on over or underground approach to Dublin airport, but an annual carrying of 4.6-5.4 million i.e 13-15k a day not 10k. On the positive side it would on its own make enough to bank roll the entire Dublin commuter network About 2 months back RUI made a submission to the NTA with respect to the 2030 vision document, based on meetings with people on the Northern Irish side with respect to Belfast and the new EU transport policy and knowing Irish Rail has been told that 4 tracks can't be done from Rahney to Howth Junction, we proposed an alternative loosely phrased as Interconnector phase 2 Quote:
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As a proposal, it's pretty good, but presumably it would cost quite an amount of money and take some time.
In the shorter term, are there many stations that could be quad tracked through the stations to allow InterCity and Commuter trains to pass DARTs? I would imagine Clontarf Rd and Howth Junction. Also, possibly Raheny and Kilbarrack if you moved them from their current location? I haven't travelled through Clongriffen since it opened. I assume it was only built with 2 lines through? |
Irish Rail's reports favour 2 tracks on western side. 3 tracks possible within existing boundary. 4 tracks would require land acquisition. Every station and bridge would need to be rebuilt
The problem is Rahney to North of Howth Junction, there was no way to reasonably fit 4 tracks, only 3. Now the proposals suggested grade separation at Howth Junction. The Airport spur would be grade separated and merge just north of Clongriffen which is built with 4 platform already The scale of disruption required would be immense and that is a serious concern Should be noted the DART, 29000, ICR and Mk4 fleets are all designed to cat B fire standards and can operate in long tunnels. All you have to worry about is ventilation. Cost wise to get 4 tracks in to Clongriffen would be 600+ million, add 400 million to get to the Airport and some extra trains say 100 million you are already 1.1 billion down, add in 4 tracks to Donabate could be another 400 million. But your airport spur is 8km the wrong way so a very slow route if you want to do Ballbriggan Airport Dublin its out as is Dublin Belfast via Airport as it adds 16km to the journey Our tunnel option plus the loop back towards Rush and Lusk would be ballpark 2 billion, but its direct and avoids the need to grade separate Howth Junction, dig up Killester Donabate, avoids Malahide Esturary and provides a new service from north of the Airport. Best of all in distance terms its 2-3km extra at most but without the curves or traffic of the existing route so you can fly along at full speed. All Ballbriggan/Drogheda/Dundalk/Belfast would divert via tunnel. DART from Rush and Lusk on existing route. P&R and interchange at Rush and Lusk Ignoring the complexities in isolation the spur doesn't work you need 4 track and interconnector and if you are going to go that far you might as well get the full package |
Has anyone got access to ies initial plans for the DART dating back to 1991?
is it available online? |
What about revisiting the maynooth line option? The spur would have been just after phoenix park?
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File and materials in Members area ------>
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If I remember rightly, the original spur was to be have been though the Pelletstown/Royal Canal Park development, then would of looping round Finglas/Ballymun before heading to the Airport..
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What about terminal capacity at Connolly?
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Presumably, this would be in association with the Interconnector, so the trains would use it to get to Heuston and beyond.
Having a single connection from Heuston to the Airport is IMO a positive move. There may have to be some thought given to how to connect the Sligo and Belfast lines though (Rosslare could connect at Pearse or possibly even have direct services). I guess Sligo trains could run through to Pearse (or it could make an argument for Rosslare-Sligo direct. Dundalk and Drogheda passengers could connect at Howth Junction. It would be questionable whether the numbers on services from the North could justify stopping Belfast InterCities there. |
Has anyone costed an express route from Donabate to Drogheda for Enterprise/express suburban/Tara to avoid 4-tracking Donabate-Balbriggan? The right time for this was during M1 land take but we couldn't have road and rail sharing infrastructure... :rolleyes:
I'm a bit concerned about the Clontarf GC-M50 route - property values are depressed enough so I imagine the locals won't be thrilled at the possibility of a TBM putting cracks in their foundations, given the lack of a nearby arterial to run under. @comcor - if BXD happens Interconnector is dead, and the article above makes no reference to Heuston. |
But seriously, if the RUI suggestion is taken on board, is all the design work for Metro North redundant? How long would it take then to design the new tunnel and then enquiries and EIS documents, just like the whole process for the Dart Underground.. what 10 years wasted with Metro North? Unbelievable, what a country
If Metro North is cancelled, will it be replaced like you suggested with buses via the Port Tunnel.. a good compromise if the Dart Underground project is prioritised? |
The proposal is not a replacement for metro north but a next step after interconnector to address the Northern line issue and the submission identifies MN and IC as being priorities for completion before this. Cost and planning wise it would take some years but ideally that work would be done when interconnector was being built. Thats why it was sent in under the 2030 vision its clearly not a runner in the current situation. Remember only 25% of metro north business is Dublin Airport so its not a replacement there is a need for some form of north south link
There would be a huge amount of reusability in design and equipment terms as you would reuse the TBM and general station design already paid for elsewhere The professional view on the DART spur is its a not a runner on its own. The general view on DART to airport is to lash down a tunnel from the city to the airport. Until now no one has actually put a pen to paper and to propose and reason out a route. We simply picked Killester on the basis of space available and it would allow a multitude of options as in Connolly or IC and it avoids going under the Port Tunnel as well |
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For one thing, the Sligo line already serves a good portion of the area. Also, the population would be lower than on a line that ran from Kent Station through Cork City Centre onto UCC (13,000 students) and CIT (17,000 students) to Ballincollig, but that's not even being considered for a tramway. The line only makes sense if it connects up Dublin Airport and Swords, but if there's a cheaper way of doing that. |
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Greater Cork area has a population of 190,000 according to the CSO (and I'm not sure if that figire includes Ballincollig, but we'll say for argument that it does).
My point is that if you take out Swords and the airport, the population along a line that has a route like that is greater (as is the number of students at third level institutions) than the route between Glasnevin and Ballymun. From Drumcondra south, there is the Sligo line, the LUAS and no great walk to get to the DART. Swords and the airport get a service under the alternative proposals anyway. BTW I'm not claiming that a line along that route should be built in Cork, just using it to illustrate that possibly the argument for it in terms of transport on the northside of Dublin isn't as financially strong as some may believe. |
If I remember right, one of the earlier reports (about 2000) proposed a railway from Broombridge to the airport, using the free space in the middle of Finglas. This could then continue to Swords. The same report also proposed a tramline via Drumcondra and Ballymun, to link up with this line.
If the aim is to serve the airport as cheaply as possible using branches off the existing lines, this is probably better than a line from Clongriffin. It's not ideal, of course. Because of capacity problems, the trains would probably have to go from Docklands. The junction at Broombridge would be quite complicated. Of course, I'm still backing Metro North, and I only mention this because if it's a case of "back to the drawing board", this line is an option. It's strange how changeable public opinion is. In 1994, when the Luas was first proposed, a line to Ballymun was mentioned. No one particularly thought about the airport. Nowadays many people's only concern is about linking the airport - never mind if the other suburbs aren't served! People ask me why they need to go to the expense of tunnelling under north Dublin, when they could easily build a spur from Clongriffin. I reply that it is part of a plan to provide rail or tram links to as many suburbs as possible, not just to link the airport with the city centre. By the way, I'd have no problem with a tram link from Cork to Ballincollig. |
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You have to ask yourself with DUB pax numbers imploding how much passenger traffic there is to get. Stansted Express is one of the best known airport rail projects yet they are only now trying to get 40% numbers across ALL public trans modes. Airport workers often work unsocial hours when PT is poor anyway.
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Thing about the Airport Spur on its own is that - unlike commuting, which has very distinct pattern and is the bulk of service use - the airport operates around the clock. So you would get more "bums on seats" on the less used off-peak trains, though the service might be of limited use during the commuter peak.
However, given the condition of the Northern Line, adding an M1 Park and Ride to it should be opposed at this time. |
The math suggests that a double decker bus every 10 minutes would be more than sufficient to meet the demand between Airport and City
The spur is no good for anyone who works at the airport which is very large number, they mostly live in Swords and Blanchardstown |
@sean - you're right about airport spur being unique travel patterns - they also have luggage which will be hard to deal with on commuter-fit high density carriages.
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Remember that while 150 people might get off the plane at the same time, that immigration, luggage collection, customs and general delays means that they will be spread out when they arrive at the station and will board different trains. Also, many people these days travel with only modest luggage (although some could be be smuggling a small car in their out-sized luggage). :) |
DART link to airport of little benefit, says county manager
Article in Irish Independent
Saturday June 18 2011 A MAJOR local authority has criticised a plan to extend the DART line to Dublin Airport instead of building the Metro North light-rail system. Fingal County Manager David O'Connor claimed the low-cost DART spur would offer "little benefit" to the people of north Dublin, would not serve airport workers, would not be able to compete with buses and would result in fewer DART links to other stations. His comments follow on the Irish Independent's recent disclosure that the €2.5bn Metro North project was to be shelved in favour of the DART plan. Funding The Government ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update the 1991 plan to build a 6.5km spur to the airport, from just beyond Clongriffin DART Station, with the cost estimated at €300m. The move came amid concerns about funding Metro North which was to link St Stephen's Green to Swords via the airport. In a report to councillors, Mr O'Connor said the Metro would help to develop north Dublin, lead to the creation of 25,000 jobs and reduce road traffic. The DART, he claimed, would not help deliver any of the inward investment planned for Fingal, and DART customers would be "detrimentally affected" because trains would have to be taken off the Howth/Malahide lines to serve the airport. "Dublin Airport accounts for around 20pc of the total patronage on Metro North, or six million passengers per year. Roughly half are workers in airport-related activities who live along the Metro North route. The DART spur would not serve any of these workers.'' And the DART spur was unlikely to be even competitive with the Aircoach service in terms of journey time, he warned. |
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The latest proposal appears to suggest the following
1) A grade separated junction north of Clongriffin 2) Use of all 4 platforms at Clongriffin 3) A twin track line under the 10/28 runway to a location close to the short stay car park at Terminal 1 4) A 4 coach train every 15 minutes to Pearse in addition to existing DART services (6 sets = 24 coaches) That would be possible within the current stock availability and provide extra capacity on the northside. It would mean 10 of the 20 slots per hour are gone (4/3/3) which leaves 8 really as you always leave 2 slots spare, but non DART trains need 2.5 slots it doesn't look good unless you wedge the commuter trains through in pairs (3.5 slots) On the upside the proposal only further pushes the DART underground as the solution. I could still see Swords and Blanachardstown getting a metro/luas to the Airport |
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This is a seriously flawed proposal delivering a journey time to Dublin Airport which can be easily bettered by road. It might allow the politicians tick the airport rail link box, but is not remotely comparable to Metro North in scope or impact. |
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My bad flightpath for the runway not runway
The runaway 10/28 flightpath runs at almost a 90 degree angle to the railway line, an airport branch would leave north of Clongriffin and turn towards the Airport. If you draw a line from the end of the main runway to the approach fix off the coast it passes just south of Portmarnock Due to planning, noise and safety rules you can't build housing near the flightpath, but you are allowed build a railway. Land is therefore cheap and not currently in use. There are also very few roads to cross We have access to Irish Rail's airport link proposals for both the Western and Eastern approaches so this has been thought out for sometime The previous plans assumed a 300-350 million cost, but even at that price the financial numbers were positive so at 200 million its a bargain deal. It is also profitable and leverages existing infrastructure with minimal disruption to all |
Ok I understand what you are saying about the approach to runway 28 and certainly a quick perusal of google earth shows a relatively unobstructed corridor from Clongriffin to the airport.
As any regular user of the Belfast line will tell you, Irish Rail have great difficulty in getting an Enterprise or commuter service to Malahide without conflicting with a DART sevice, even at off peak times with only 4 DART trains per hour per direction. It is not uncommon for commuter services to take almost 30 minutes to travel the 11.5 miles from Connolly to Donabate. Additional DART services will only make matters worse. If an airport link is provided from Clongriffin it will result in a further loss of competitiveness and relevance for Enterprise and longer distance commuter services. The route via Clongriffin is circuituous and the proposed journey time of 25 minutes (from Connolly ?) to the airport is hardly especially attractive being well within the capability of a bus service from the city centre via the port tunnel. For this proposal (or the interconnector for that matter) to work additional tracks are required north of Connolly. Twenty trains per hour per direction on a mixed traffic double track railway is a fantasy that can only be achieved if every train travels at the same speed as the slowest service. |
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Also, I assume they'll have to go under the M1 somehow. Do you know how they plan on achieving that? Quote:
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"Costly Metro North finally hits buffers"
Sunday Independent July 24 2011 Article...
Metro North will not proceed and is "no longer viable" given its huge cost, according to a number of senior government sources. While officially no decision has been taken, several senior government sources have said that in light of "significant cuts" to capital spending, the €5bn pet project of former Transport Minister Noel Dempsey is not viable. Speaking to this newspaper yesterday, Finance Minister Michael Noonan confirmed that December's Budget would contain significant cuts to both current and capital spending, but was keen to stress that no decision had been taken on this specific project. A full review of the capital spending programme is under way and will be completed in September, after which a decision will be made on which of the four projects -- Metro North, Dart underground, Dart airport and link-up of the two Luas lines -- will go ahead. "No decision has been taken, all of these things will be decided once the Comprehensive Spending Review is completed, but there will be significant cuts on the capital spending side in the Budget," Mr Noonan said. His colleague and the line minister in charge, Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, also insisted last week that no final decision had been made, but there was a growing acceptance at senior government level that Metro North would not proceed. "Clearly there is no hope of this thing going ahead. Just watch this space, the review will come out and Metro North will be gone. We simply can't afford it and we don't need it. They will find another way to link the airport by rail, either by Luas or by Dart," said a senior government source. "No final decision will be made until the National Development Plan is published in September. All the projects on the table have a lot of merit but the key issue will be affordability," Mr Varadkar told the Sunday Independent. In recent weeks, the Government has sought a cost outline from Irish Rail for a link-up to the airport by Dart. It has also emerged that construction of a new Dart line to Dublin Airport will cost just €200m, less than a tenth of the cost of Metro North. Irish Rail has told Mr Varadkar that the cost of building the 6.5-km Dart spur from Clongriffin to the airport would be significantly lower than expected because of falling land prices and lower construction costs. The new line could be operational within four years. The lower cost and rapid delivery of a high-speed rail link from the airport to the city means the project is more likely to be approved by the Government. "Initial indications are that the cost of the 6.5-km rail link from the airport to Clongriffin, which would provide direct Dart services between the airport and the city centre, will come in significantly lower than previously estimated, in the region of €200m in total." Up to 2,000 jobs will be created if the project is approved. |
I'm getting tired of the Indo's Anti-Metro North campaign. :mad: Oh the "sources" said it, so it must be so.
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It hasn't been cancelled.
The RPA told us straight to our face this afternoon that nothing has changed Now Metro West on the other hand..... |
If there was a DART spur into the airport and onto Swords, I reckon it would be more of a pity to see Metro West scrapped than Metro North.
Now, if it was built, I'd change the end points. Howth on the Northside, removing the DART from Howth and helping with capacity problems on the Northern line. And on the Southside to continue to link to the LUAS Green line and UCD and possibly onto the DART. |
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