Submission to the NTA about Waterford-Rosslare?
 

Hi everyone, I'm not on Facebook so I can't join the save the Rosslare Railway FB group, but I just read this post on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=430
and am tempted to jump in and make an emailed submission to the NTA about the proposed closure.

I have read that the 25 people who use the railway each day, do so in spite of IEs best efforts. Obviously I wouldn't put such accusations in a submission, but it does lead me to conclude that the whole thing stinks to hell.

Therefore, I'm looking for advice on what sort of submission I should make? How I should word it etc. (bear in mind I'm not personally familiar with the line at all).

A few questions:

1. What, at a fundamental level, makes the line worth trying to save?
2. How is Irish Rails mal-administration of the line limiting its potential?
3. What opportunities and social benefits could a properly run line offer?
4. If the line is saved, what (realistically) should happen next?

Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference

so how about asking the people who actually own the line to get someone else to run the service ?

The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

The accounts state

I spoke to someone in the NTA today and he confirmed that while they are NOT seeking submissions they are happy to receive them and there is NO deadline. Might I ask where you got the account information for the FRRHCo? Until someone convinces me otherwise I will remain in the belief that the FRRHCo is the achilles heel in CIE's campaign to close the line. Incidentally, how come a dismissed director of IE - Keenan - is still on the board of the FRRHCo on behalf of CIE/IE?

There is a deadline since the NTA must reply to IE within a set number of weeks from there request, that was yesterday as that was 10 working days from the request IE made for a variance on the contract, as per section 4.3 of the contract NTA - IE

Sure that deadline can be waived if both parties agree, now do you honestly think IE will agree to drag it out? Regardless there is no legal obligation to even consider the submissions. The DoT naturally gave IE an exemption from EC1371/2007 which would have legally required RUI and certain others to be consulted under EU law (The nice people in the European Rail Agency in Brussels recognise us)

The F&RHRco is a shell company, the only point we have a shot at is if IE start to lift the line at which point they are impacting on the assets held by the company, IE have indicated over and over again there are no plans to lift or sell off

The Transport Act does not prohibit IE from withdrawing services, a line closure is a different issue. There is some historical precedents with the F&RHRco which support this view, full details are awaited. The NTA can of course refuse the variance on the contract.

That quote is from the accounts of 2003 I think

Mr Kennan is still an paid employee of Irish Rail, he has not been dismissed

The NTA has requested further information from Irish Rail before making a decision.

What type of information are they looking for?

Sadly we don't know exactly, it appears to relate to what the plan would be if the line was closed.

If IE cannot provide a reasonable alternative they can be refused permission to close. Given the unique nature of the route this is a strong possibilty

Then the plan of attack should be to point out that replacing a poorly run train service with a bus service is unacceptable.

Reasons:
1) Despite only one service each way at inconvienient times there is still a demand for a RAIL service (at least 25 passengers a day each way according to IE, I wouldn't mind seeing an independent survey either) IR said that it's used mainly by WIT students, well what about students that want to go back to Waterford on a Sunday-No service for them! So the strongest market share isn't even being properly catered for.

2)There are already numerous Bus services from Rosslare Europort to Waterford (5-6 a day in fact so no wonder the rail service is suffering!), adding more buses to the roads is unnecessary duplication of services, and diverting current ones from the N25 route to go through South Wexford adds on such a journey time that it degrades the bus commuters service. A lose lose situation all round.

Thats already been done

I know but with these things the message needs to be repeated. Look at the campaign to reverse the cutting of the southeast SAR, it was so robust that the dept came to the public saying the decision was reversed all in a very short time frame.

It's also worth pointing out what happened to other bus services that replaced train services.

In the recent round of cuts, Bus Eireann got rid of a lot of them. In this part of the world, the Mallow-Fermoy-Dungarvan-Waterford service is set to be axed. I'm sure that applies elsewhere in the country as well.

The NTA is considering the position following submissions, there being a process set down in the contracts in place.

Irish Rail have been asked to provide additional information. Our submission http://www.railusers.ie/resources/nt..._waterford.php was made before the deadline and the NTA have confirmed receipt of.

We are working with interested parties on an alternative plan, history has shown that Irish Rail back down when a third party threatens to expose them for what they are. It doesn't involve the RPSI, its about a real service with real trains.

Please correct me if there has been a subsequent happening but I travelled on the final Mallow-Dungarvan bus on Saturday 27th February. A new timetable with just one SuO journey on the Lismore - Waterford section (and no service during the week) was introduced the following day.

Incidentally this bus route was well used, the final journey was being used by no less than around 40 passengers in the course of its journey.

A rail feeder bus Fermoy/Mitchelstown to Mallow was contained in plans announced in recent years but hasn't materialised and is assumed dropped.

Neither Mallow nor Thurles railway stations are now served by bus as a result of the recent BÉ cuts.

All over bar the shouting.
 

From the Facebook campaign tonight: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...d=367387502018

Joe Ryan Tomorrows papers will carry notices from Irish Rail setting out their intention to end services on the line on July 21st. It seems that the company has decided to ignore the process they opted for themselves in April with the NTA and is now seek closure under the 1958 Transport Act.
After yesterday's charade in Dail Eirean what's left of their credibility is shot to bits!

They are following the exact legal process.

To completely withdraw services requires a notice under section 19 of the act of 1958. To reduce the number of services on a route requires the permission of the NTA, if you reduce to 0, then the formal section 19 must be applied also.

The NTA's presence bought a 6 weeks delay, had the NTA not been there the line would be closing this month.

Its offical now http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/...ew&news_id=765

Seems the NTA hasn't said yes or no

Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.

The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.

Assuming that the closure goes ahead and that the proposed replacement bus services are put in place, it will be interesting to see whether at a later date, at least some of the latter are quietly withdrawn.

The only Green party politician who has responded to my letters protesting IE´s announcement

I had the same thought, but that improvement for 370 customers should not have required the shutdown of the South Wexford.

The NTA has been used by CIE in this matter, and CIE have bypassed them when they did not provide the expedited closure they wanted. If the NTA wants to be relevant into the future they should request that the Minister halt CIE's application under the 1958 Act and return to the NTA process.

The price of the withdrawal of the south Wexford and the transfer of that catchment to BE should be the use of that set for a Waterford inward commuter service either from Clonmel/Carrick-on-Suir (combined population not far short of Ennis/Sixmilebridge) or from Carlow, and sending that 2700 north again thereafter to Carlow to split the 3h20m gap between 0740 and 1100 northbound departures.

Let us be clear here about the process

The board of CIE can close any line they wish if it is not economically viable, basically the entire network

The minister has no power to over rule the board

If any member of the CIE group reduces its service level on any route without first obtaining the authorisation of the NTA is liable to be hit with a significant fine

The public service grant is a block grant and is applied on a network basis, so there is no way of knowing how much is allocated to any one service.


Anyone who has read the closure notice carefully should by now have noticed that it can be legally challenged as it contains several glaring mistakes. Basically the line will remain open beyond July 21st as the notice will have to be reissued.

Does the Minister have the power to instruct NTA to withhold authorisation to terminate?

The fact that the NTA does not consider the fact that it is considering an authorisation to terminate "news" to put on its website is something they should be told to correct, in my view. Certainly more important than "welcoming the opening of Clongriffen"

In this new era of regulation, the minister has no power over the NTA.

The NTA are to there credit holding Irish Rail's little scheme up, I can see this going on for some time.

The NTA has no obligation to consult if a service change is proposed

Thanks for the info for the minister - in fairness regulators should be able to get on with it, just surprising when the pols actually give up power!

As for NTA's obligations re consultations, I'm sure that's true, it's just that it is in my view something they SHOULD do rather than putting up puff pieces about DART stations. Maybe running NTA can be Elderfield's next job once he's done shoeing the banks.

No, they are giving up responsibility and hte resulting bad press. :)

That would be an operational matter for the company.....

The proposed replacement service conflicts with section 3 of the NTA generic contract which applies to IE, BE and DB so they will have to rethink that

The notice issued by CIE to close the line is suspect and may be invalid though not for the reason most people guess at first glance, there are other statutory obligations on CIE. Yes they will be obliged to hand over to us a very large amount of data concerning the passenger breakdown since by law they must.

NTA have just confirmed to me that they are still reviewing Irish Rail's application.

Wow these guys have cabinet seats but rail services get a speech in the seanad

If I remember right from reading the Transport Acts, the Dáil has the right to overrule a closure. I think they did that with the Loughrea branch when closure was proposed in 1963. I know it closed 12 years later, but it made a difference at the time. If we could get the Greens to vote with the opposition, the closure could be voted out.

I think the closure of four stations between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire in 1960 was delayed because of the legal notice not having the right information, somewhat like what is happening now. All these stations were re-opened over the period 1972-1984.

Some years ago I asked for some legal opinion about closures. I was told that this kind of act tends to give wide powers of discretion. So it's difficult to catch them out on words like "if in the opinion of the Board the service is uneconomical and unlikely to be economical for a reasonable period". But it was suggested that the whole Act could be unconstitutional because it contravenes normal justice by not allowing the principle of audi alteram parte, hear the other side. Have you any ideas on this?

In general, because the damage caused by closures is spread over the economy rather than certain individuals suffering, there have been few cases chalenging the act. But the first question should be, not who can afford to take a case, but whether the case stands. Even a threat of a case could put pressure in the right places.

Chamber 'furious' at rail line closure
 

As I posted at the outset the line will not be closing as soon as Irish Rail think

The NTA have not made a decision and will not make a decision for some time pending a report commissioned studying the route

The various legal avenues being considered could independent of the NTA add several months before a closure could be legally effected.

[Article] Rosslare-Waterford rail service to end
 

Needless to say the usual fun and games are afoot in Irish Rail

The revised proposal which Irish Rail studied and rejected as for 3 trains each way. This would result in approx 250 journeys per day. Roughly 70,000 per annum. The Wexford study suggests closer to 300 per day. Both studies appear to ignore the potential if small of ferry traffic which could add 10%

Operating loss would fall from approx 2.4 million to 1.9 million (this the figure from the Fearn-Wexford letter)

Shocking when you consider that phase two of the WRC is projected to carry 65,000 passengers a year(I believe) after a capital investment to rebuild the line, yet a much smaller investment on this existing line would yield similar passenger numbers.

We are working with the crew in Wexford, I wrote part of that letter in fact.

But its the same old story, a poor service generates little business. It will actually save Irish Rail money to run more trains!

Capital outlay of say 15 million would replace all the signalling half a dozen gates automated, the worst of the track replaced and stations cleaned up. This would substantially reduce costs further, easily another 300,000 euro off