Automatic ticket checking in Heuston

[Thomas Ralph]

There's a rhythm to it. You can put the next ticket in as soon as the last ticket has been taken out at the top, and if you do so within a second or so of that, the gate will remain open and you can carry on. It will take longer to catch on at Heuston, I imagine, since passengers at Heuston are likely to be less frequent travellers than those at, say, Pearse.

[DangerM]

On the Gorey trains when arriving into the city stations the following automatic announcement is made:

Please mind the gap and have your ticket ready for validation

I am a bit confused as to why this can't be introduced for trains arriving into Heuston? Surely it should be the same across the board?

[Mark Gleeson]

By the letter of the law there is no need for that announcement, trust me when you hear it 10 times in less than 10 minutes you will get rather frustrated. There has been as long as I can remember a staffed barrier and Pearse, Tara, Connolly and Bray. No where does the pa say retain your ticket for inspection when leaving the station

• There have been clear notices in Heuston concerning the exit gates for months
• Passenger groups in Kildare have known for over 2 years that the gates where coming
• There are notices at stations served by Heuston
• There is a notice on the Irish Rail website
• Large scale manual ticket checks in Heuston have been fairly common in the last 2 years

The problem in Heuston is the software glitches which end up refusing a large range of valid tickets combined with poorly trained staff who don't understand which tickets are valid

[RadarControl]

I was told yesterday evening on my way through Heuston that several of the machines have been replaced. All will be replaced by June Bank holiday weekend. My ticket now works on the machines that have been replaced but not on the ones that still are waiting to be replaced. As far as I know the ones to the left of the control computer as you walk towards platform 1-5 have been replaced.

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

• There are notices at stations served by Heuston
• Large scale manual ticket checks in Heuston have been fairly common in the last 2 years

These two points aren't true. There may be signs in some stations but I know for certain that there are no signs in Newbridge and is the RUG even in existence down there any more?

Also, in 18 months using Heuston, I was never asked for my ticket once when leaving the station, other than when RPU were doing a blitz, and even then I have a vague recollection that the drivers announced on some trains to keep your ticket.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are posters out there, I've seen photos of them, strange green colour background at the top. There was no shortage of posters in Heuston

There have been ticket checks in Heuston and they have certainly been far more common down to the point of complaints arriving in at being checked several days in a row

Iarnrod Eireann intention to gate was certainly mentioned at a public meeting in recent years

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

By the letter of the law there is no need for that announcement, trust me when you hear it 10 times in less than 10 minutes you will get rather frustrated. There has been as long as I can remember a staffed barrier and Pearse, Tara, Connolly and Bray. No where does the pa say retain your ticket for inspection when leaving the station

With all due respect, I think you're *still* missing the point. No-one is claiming they should play the announcement at every station forever more. This is a major change to the way customers are expected to behave so the announcement need only be played for the first few weeks following introduction of the automatic checks and only at that station.

This has nothing to do with the letter of the law, it's to do with treating customers with respect. I use Heuston periodically for IC trips and have never been asked for my ticket upon exit - maybe it's more common for suburban trains. Had I discarded my ticket on the train or platform and then been fined, I would be extremely annoyed.

As you said, they put posters up in the stations - they recognise people need to be told of the change but then fall short of doing it properly. On a disability level, people with restricted vision might not see or be able to read the posters but they could certainly hear the recorded announcement.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by DangerM

On the Gorey trains when arriving into the city stations the following automatic announcement is made:

Please mind the gap and have your ticket ready for validation

I am a bit confused as to why this can't be introduced for trains arriving into Heuston? Surely it should be the same across the board?

Auto announcements ARE being made on some 22K services into Heuston stating that there is automatic checking and to have your ticket to hand as you alight from the train. However the volume on the English version is quite low.

[James Shields]

I can understand IE's need to protect their revenue, but the implementation of exit validation has been badly managed from the start, with a lot of people getting treated like criminals for doing what has been normal practice for decades.

The exit validators have a very annoying 2-second delay when validating tickets. Aren't they the latest technology? I've been using the gates on the London Underground for years and you can walk through them inserting and collecting an old card ticket without breaking your stride (and even easier with an Oyster card).

Second, there is also a delay before the gates close, allowing hard core fare evaders to follow a genuine passenger. I think this is largely because of the sliding door design. The London gates open by swinging in the direction the passenger is travelling, and swinging back to shut very quickly after. This means that someone trying to follow through finds themselves pushed back by the closing doors, and unable to get through.

Perhaps the IE gates can be fine tuned, but in their current mode they are not catching the real cause of the problem.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by James Shields

I can understand IE's need to protect their revenue, but the implementation of exit validation has been badly managed from the start, with a lot of people getting treated like criminals for doing what has been normal practice for decades.

Hear hear. I haven't yet gone through Heuston with my usual cross-city ticket (Sandymount to Cork), but I know that I will have trouble with it when I get back to Heuston because it will say "no journeys left".

Originally Posted by James Shields

The exit validators have a very annoying 2-second delay when validating tickets. Aren't they the latest technology? I've been using the gates on the London Underground for years and you can walk through them inserting and collecting an old card ticket without breaking your stride (and even easier with an Oyster card).

The gate generally doesn't open until you take your ticket, to prevent people leaving it behind. It also doesn't open if there is someone right up next to the gate, because it thinks you're trying to get two people through.

Originally Posted by James Shields

Second, there is also a delay before the gates close, allowing hard core fare evaders to follow a genuine passenger. I think this is largely because of the sliding door design. The London gates open by swinging in the direction the passenger is travelling, and swinging back to shut very quickly after. This means that someone trying to follow through finds themselves pushed back by the closing doors, and unable to get through.

This is a safety thing, so that someone doesn't get crushed. The principal problem is that the gates are bi-directional (and have to be because there isn't enough space in most stations for more than three or four on each side). Therefore, the London-style gates won't work. There is an alarm that sounds (a "choo-choo" sound) when multiple people go through on a single ticket, but IÉ staff seem to studiously ignore it.

For myself, I block people from coming through behind without putting in a ticket. Most of the people I have stopped have been on an annual ticket that they say is malfunctioning :/

Originally Posted by James Shields

Perhaps the IE gates can be fine tuned, but in their current mode they are not catching the real cause of the problem.

Like most other similar inventions (scrambling of cable TV, having to activate MS Office, and making people go to an interview to get a passport in the UK), the gates reduce casual violations without really addressing the core of the problem, and due to the deficiencies in their programming, they are just getting on people's nerves now.

[Mark Gleeson]

The gates have problems but they have had a massive impact on fare evasion in the last few years

When the person in front of you has removed their ticket insert yours and the gate will stay open. The problem with that is finding a line of commuters whose tickets will all work in the gates

Smartcard tickets are getting ever closer which will solve the validation problems, far side of this summer

The real problem is the focus on evasion detection instead of a focus on making it easy to get a ticket before you board

There are other side benefits, a smartcard ticket reported lost/stolen will be refused by the gates thus putting an end to the replacement charges on annual tickets

[Mark]

In addition to what Mark Gleeson said about the benefits of Smart Cards, the amount of travel pattern info that can be taken from Smart Card use is incredible. The RPA have stated that they intend on full smart card use in the coming years as it is cheaper than producing dosposible tickets. Less mechanical wear and tear on the TVMs, quicker boarding, quicker inspection etc. So much more info can be stored on them.

Lets not forget though, Smart Card tickets doesnt mean integrated ticketing.

[Thomas Ralph]

Veolia has got in quite a lot of hot water with the Data Protection Commissioner over processing smartcard data.

[Mark]

In one of the nordic countries I remember reading that the transport provider/authority has been banned from using smart card data for tracking peoples journey patterns. Privacy and all that.

[Mark]

why IS Heuston actually getting ticket barriers? I can understand if it were for the suburban services or possibly the regional trains to Carlow, Portlaoise and Athlone but dont all intercity trains have ticket inspectors on them?

On the continent for example it is quite normal to have access to the intercity platforms to welcome and see off friends and family or even to board departing trains with the intention of buying a ticket on board.

Should IE be treating Intercity customers like commuters?

[PLUMB LOCO]

For anyone of my age (50) these ticket validation measures are just the latest in a long line of expensive, poorly thought out ways of trying to replace staff at stations. I have lost count of the enormous numbers of different ticket barriers tried out in the Dublin area over the last four decades. Possibly the worst aspect of this latest attempt is the way that the most ignorant, badly motivated staff seem to have been placed at the barriers to 'help' passengers who experience difficulties.

[iridium]

Originally Posted by Mark

why IS Heuston actually getting ticket barriers? I can understand if it were for the suburban services or possibly the regional trains to Carlow, Portlaoise and Athlone but dont all intercity trains have ticket inspectors on them?

Every time I've been on the 06:35 Limerick to Dublin in the last couple of weeks, some fecking ticket inspector has deliberately woke me up (it's way too early to be awake like), and asked to see my ticket, but only once we had passed Newbridge - the final stop before Heuston, where I'd have to be showing my ticket at the barriers anyway. Why not ask earlier in the journey for people who might be getting out in places like Portlaoise or Kildare, where there are no validation gates? Or failing that, just let me sleep!

Where's the logic?

[hoopsheff]

Has anybody else noticed that trains no longer get a platform number on the display board in Heuston until they are there and ready to board (usually about 2 mins before departure time) ?

Yesterday a lot of people saw the 18:35 train to Thurles coming into platform 2 and went to board it (at 18:30)...and were promptly chased down platform 2 by IR staff and removed from the Train (as it was not ready for boarding apparently!)....only to be allowed back on the train 2 mins later.

One question I would ask is why the train did not arrive at the platform ready for boarding? It wasnt an incoming train full of passengers!

[iridium]

Yep, was waiting on that train too. They called the platform number at 18:36, there was a mad scramble by everyone and it departed at 18:39.

Much the same thing happened with today's 18:05 to Portlaoise. Except it was more like 18:10 when the empty train even arrived in the platform with the majority of people still on the concourse. Once again, mad scramble, departure 3-4 mins later.

If the train is coming in empty - i.e. is not a scheduled service that needs to be turned around first and therefore may be prone to delays on the way to Dublin - why can't they actually have the train sitting on the platform and ready to board before the advertised departure time? Instead they leave everybody guessing what's going on.

[hoopsheff]

yeah saw that yesterday too..they announced the 18.05 would be late..didnt name a platform...everybody already knew it would be platform 2 and most were waiting for it when the train pulled in....cue announcements asking people to stand well back on platform 2 (because everybody stands in the way of incoming trains!! )