Programme for Government 2020

comcor · 20-07-2020, 21:06

So the Cork proposals were presented to councilors this evening. It essentially amounts to five new stations (Blarney, Kilbarry, Dunkettle, Ballynoe, Carrigtwohill West) and electrification of the suburban rail network.

I don’t really understand why Ballynoe, which isn’t all that far from Rushbrooke and not Tivoli.

Regarding the diverged discussion, I’d actually be in favour of some rural stopping services. Something like a route that ran:-

Cork
Blarney
Mallow
Buttevant
Charleville
Kilmallock
Limerick junction
Limerick P&R (somewhere near where the rail line crosses the M7)
Limerick

You could them eliminate Charleville from Cork-Dublin services, but provide a better service as a result. Connections with Dublin-Cork trains at Limerixk Junction can then feed that route. However, it’s clearly not an option unless the fleet gets significantly expanded. Maybe if there’s further electrification around Dublin, some diesel railcars may be available.

comcor · 22-07-2020, 09:57

So apparently dual-tracking to Midleton was also included. Seems like a bit of a waste to me when the current track can handle 4 trains per hour each way and the current peak hour service is only twice per hour. If needed four trains an hour with larger capacity seems sufficient in the next 20 years. That would be a three-fold capacity increase.

ACustomer · 23-07-2020, 08:14

Normally Midleton and Cobh services are provided by 2-car DMUs. All platforms can take 4 cars without any alteration. So the capacity of the existing hourly service could be doubled without extra fixed assets, or quadrupled by moving to a 4-car 30-minute interval service. And I daresay that extra peak hour services might easily provide even more capacity.
For all of this you will need more rolling stock. More track capacity would be a total waste of money. Services in the Mallow direction are another matter.

Jamie2k9 · 23-07-2020, 14:35

It should be doubled, its a very cheap investment. The alignment is available apart from one bridge however replacmentg that or not isn't really an issue. Give or take 30 million project. The line cost 75 to open.

dowlingm · 24-07-2020, 14:58

I was surprised to learn that there is a decent sized double track section around Carrigtwohill - I thought it was full single with a double track terminus. The terminal section could be extended west (there seems to be room for a second river bridge deck) but am not sure about the overpass west of that and would much rather spend cash to knock out the two small LCs a bit further on with a single decent overpass.

As for “Ballynoe” - where would that be in actuality? If it was beside Carrigaloe ferry dock there would be an intermodal aspect there at least.

No Tivoli is a crazy call - a golden opportunity to create dense and transit oriented development hindered surely?

comcor · 26-07-2020, 08:21

I can only assume that the rationale behind Ballynoe is to provide better access to the area around Rushbrooke Links. Overall it would serve close to 400 houses there and maybe another 30-40 one-off houses in the area. However, the southern end of Rushbrooke Links is as close to Rushbrooke station and could be facilitated by a direct footpath. Unless there’s further zoning in the area, the station seems marginal compared to others around Cork. It’s also worth noting that Rushbrooke Links also has a direct bus service to Cork.

One thing that may be a factor is that the road bridge at Belvelly is struggling for capacity and that upgrade to the rail service in Great Island May be seen as a cheaper option than building a completely new road bridge off the island and link road up to Carrigtwohill. Back of the envelope calculation for that would be in the €80m-€120m range considering the terrain (or more accurately water) so the cost of a new station and increased rail frequency pales in comparison.

The main point to note with Tivoli is that what goes there is now firmly decided (and nothing will happen til 2028 when the Port of Cork vacate the site). However, the two proposals are either high density housing for up to 10k people or merging the Mercy Hospital and South Infirmary to create a new hospital on the site that would be one of the largest in the country, so either would create demand for a new station and that before considering the existing housing round Lotabeg and employment at the industrial estate. Hopefully that’s just a wait and see as with Port of Cork in there for the foreseeable future there is plenty of time to get a station in place before it becomes useful.

dowlingm · 26-07-2020, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by comcor

I can only assume that the rationale behind Ballynoe is to provide better access to the area around Rushbrooke Links. Overall it would serve close to 400 houses there and maybe another 30-40 one-off houses in the area. However, the southern end of Rushbrooke Links is as close to Rushbrooke station and could be facilitated by a direct footpath. Unless there’s further zoning in the area, the station seems marginal compared to others around Cork. It’s also worth noting that Rushbrooke Links also has a direct bus service to Cork.

One thing that may be a factor is that the road bridge at Belvelly is struggling for capacity and that upgrade to the rail service in Great Island May be seen as a cheaper option than building a completely new road bridge off the island and link road up to Carrigtwohill. Back of the envelope calculation for that would be in the €80m-€120m range considering the terrain (or more accurately water) so the cost of a new station and increased rail frequency pales in comparison.

Given that the existing Carrigaloe station is only accessible in one direction and has a limited catchment, abandoning it and building a new accessible “Carrigaloe and Ballynoe” station north of Ballynoe Road would put it close to the ferry dock. The question then becomes whether a halt between this station and Fota is also needed. A halt at Marino Point would in theory support both redevelopment of the industrial land as well as residential redevelopment along the west edge of Cobh Golf Club but given Port of Cork assisting Goulding’s to relocate there I have my doubts that the industrial portion will support a lot of traffic. As for the Belvelly bridge I suppose the key question is whether rail can provide the sort of service and destinations that users of the bridge require to divert them away from it.

Edit: on this topic from 1999
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.iris...128%3fmode=amp

20-07-2020, 21:06	#1
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	So the Cork proposals were presented to councilors this evening. It essentially amounts to five new stations (Blarney, Kilbarry, Dunkettle, Ballynoe, Carrigtwohill West) and electrification of the suburban rail network. I don’t really understand why Ballynoe, which isn’t all that far from Rushbrooke and not Tivoli. Regarding the diverged discussion, I’d actually be in favour of some rural stopping services. Something like a route that ran:- Cork Blarney Mallow Buttevant Charleville Kilmallock Limerick junction Limerick P&R (somewhere near where the rail line crosses the M7) Limerick You could them eliminate Charleville from Cork-Dublin services, but provide a better service as a result. Connections with Dublin-Cork trains at Limerixk Junction can then feed that route. However, it’s clearly not an option unless the fleet gets significantly expanded. Maybe if there’s further electrification around Dublin, some diesel railcars may be available. Last edited by comcor : 20-07-2020 at 21:09.

23-07-2020, 14:35	#4
Jamie2k9 Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,146	It should be doubled, its a very cheap investment. The alignment is available apart from one bridge however replacmentg that or not isn't really an issue. Give or take 30 million project. The line cost 75 to open. Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 23-07-2020 at 14:38.

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22-07-2020, 09:57	#2
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	So apparently dual-tracking to Midleton was also included. Seems like a bit of a waste to me when the current track can handle 4 trains per hour each way and the current peak hour service is only twice per hour. If needed four trains an hour with larger capacity seems sufficient in the next 20 years. That would be a three-fold capacity increase.

23-07-2020, 08:14	#3
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	Normally Midleton and Cobh services are provided by 2-car DMUs. All platforms can take 4 cars without any alteration. So the capacity of the existing hourly service could be doubled without extra fixed assets, or quadrupled by moving to a 4-car 30-minute interval service. And I daresay that extra peak hour services might easily provide even more capacity. For all of this you will need more rolling stock. More track capacity would be a total waste of money. Services in the Mallow direction are another matter.

24-07-2020, 14:58	#5
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	I was surprised to learn that there is a decent sized double track section around Carrigtwohill - I thought it was full single with a double track terminus. The terminal section could be extended west (there seems to be room for a second river bridge deck) but am not sure about the overpass west of that and would much rather spend cash to knock out the two small LCs a bit further on with a single decent overpass. As for “Ballynoe” - where would that be in actuality? If it was beside Carrigaloe ferry dock there would be an intermodal aspect there at least. No Tivoli is a crazy call - a golden opportunity to create dense and transit oriented development hindered surely?

26-07-2020, 08:21	#6
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	I can only assume that the rationale behind Ballynoe is to provide better access to the area around Rushbrooke Links. Overall it would serve close to 400 houses there and maybe another 30-40 one-off houses in the area. However, the southern end of Rushbrooke Links is as close to Rushbrooke station and could be facilitated by a direct footpath. Unless there’s further zoning in the area, the station seems marginal compared to others around Cork. It’s also worth noting that Rushbrooke Links also has a direct bus service to Cork. One thing that may be a factor is that the road bridge at Belvelly is struggling for capacity and that upgrade to the rail service in Great Island May be seen as a cheaper option than building a completely new road bridge off the island and link road up to Carrigtwohill. Back of the envelope calculation for that would be in the €80m-€120m range considering the terrain (or more accurately water) so the cost of a new station and increased rail frequency pales in comparison. The main point to note with Tivoli is that what goes there is now firmly decided (and nothing will happen til 2028 when the Port of Cork vacate the site). However, the two proposals are either high density housing for up to 10k people or merging the Mercy Hospital and South Infirmary to create a new hospital on the site that would be one of the largest in the country, so either would create demand for a new station and that before considering the existing housing round Lotabeg and employment at the industrial estate. Hopefully that’s just a wait and see as with Port of Cork in there for the foreseeable future there is plenty of time to get a station in place before it becomes useful.