DARTs, Luas and Dublin bus to be rebranded?

[Mark Gleeson]

The problem is the paint scheme is a political potato its probably the easiest way to sell the we created a DTA and look its doing something when in fact will be several years before it gets seriously going and even then thats assuming the politicians will leave it to do its job, the last DTA lasted little more than a year until the politicians killed it

The whole problem with the paint scheme is it will require the removal from service of trains for painting resulting in a reduction in service levels, that is utterly unacceptable and will be resisted with all available force, trains are painted in a specific order after a certain number of years has passed no problem with that however there is a chance political pressure will come to bear to massively accelerate this process to the determent of the passenger. No one has a problem with the concept of a common livery once it is applied during the routine painting of all the trains/buses/trams and so on, anything beyond that is unacceptable

Of course you will find excellent integrated transport in europe without a everything carrying a common colour scheme

Regardless of the accuracy of the article it makes a solid point that this random changing of colour scheme as is particularly practiced by Dublin Bus is going to cost money, money which of course could be better spent on improving the service, which will actually improve our lot as passengers.

[Dkettle]

I go along with what Eoin says in terms of creating a brand, when you see RATP you know you will get reliable convenient transport in Paris.

This single brand should be the umbrella and it's owners (DTA) should be the lightning rod for all criticism of transport in Dublin, as well as the driving force for real change.

Having a single recognisable brand lets the public know there is an Authority, and not just a shambolic fuzzy cloud of stakeholders / operators / vested interests.

TFL have excellent branding also, despite the huge array of operators and stakeholders. They have adapted the underground logo very effectively, and their oyster card is a must have in London.

While I don't agree with painting all the buses / trains / trams the same colour I think the single bus colour is a symbol of very good management of bus franchising in London, but my main point is that a single strong brand should be a symbol of an integrated system (initially it should symbolise the drive to achieve this integration).

Single Authority - Single Integrated Ticket - Single recognisable logo.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by philip

The german minister for transport doesn't stick his oar in at every opportunity and everyone works together. THERE IS NO REASON THIS CAN'T HAPPEN IN DUBLIN if the DTA is backed by strong legislation and money.

Except the DTA will be subject to ministerial direction. The proof of the pudding is how often (or not) it is used.

Originally Posted by weehamster

For example, Luas we have the Red and Green line. Later we'll have (probably) the yellow (lucan), purple (Liffey Jtn, hopefully Finglas) (pick whatever colour you want), the metro has north, west, (maybe south later) and the Dart, A and B (maybe). A simple colour/number code system is needed like you see in Madrid.
http://www.geocities.com/weehamster/Lines.jpg

Numbers are better than colours or letters, less confusion.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Regardless of the accuracy of the article it makes a solid point that this random changing of colour scheme as is particularly practiced by Dublin Bus is going to cost money, money which of course could be better spent on improving the service, which will actually improve our lot as passengers.

Since the CitySwift / Expresso situation*, DB have only repainted buses about once each in their useful (DB) lives.



* CitySwift and Expresso were created as separate brands to highlight the introduction of QBCs. However, problems arose when buses were moved between services.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by eoin

All this outrage is just stupid. This entire thread is based on the premise that a riciculously inaccurate and poorly researched article in the Independent is true. I entirely agree that government policy, political interference and shirking of responsibility have resulted in the mess that is Dublin's public transport system and the agencies that run it.

But the idea that developing a single Dublin Transport brand is somehow underhand and vote-seeking is ludicrous. People don't vote for Ken Livingstone because the Underground, DLR and London Buses use the same logo. I very much doubt that the DTA is going to demand that public transport providers use a single livery. It would probably generate negative publicity if anything.

A single brand would be excellent. More importantly a single information scheme would be excellent and would encourage uptake of public transport. Yes, the system's a shambles. But that's no reason why people shouldn't be given decent information on how to use what's there. A united brand, website and system for the display of information would be a huge step forward. With integrated ticketing, obviously.

I'm actually quite disappointed by the reaction of RUI committee members in this regard. I thought lack of information was one of RUI's major complaints with Irish Rail.

Unity of information = good

Intgrated ticketing = good

painting everything the same colour without that being done first = pointless

Information provision has nothing to do with paint schemes.

Originally Posted by Dkettle

I go along with what Eoin says in terms of creating a brand, when you see RATP you know you will get reliable convenient transport in Paris.

This single brand should be the umbrella and it's owners (DTA) should be the lightning rod for all criticism of transport in Dublin, as well as the driving force for real change.

Having a single recognisable brand lets the public know there is an Authority, and not just a shambolic fuzzy cloud of stakeholders / operators / vested interests.

TFL have excellent branding also, despite the huge array of operators and stakeholders. They have adapted the underground logo very effectively, and their oyster card is a must have in London.

While I don't agree with painting all the buses / trains / trams the same colour I think the single bus colour is a symbol of very good management of bus franchising in London, but my main point is that a single strong brand should be a symbol of an integrated system (initially it should symbolise the drive to achieve this integration).

Single Authority - Single Integrated Ticket - Single recognisable logo.

Yes, but putting the logo before anything is actually done is just a trick.

[eoin]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

painting everything the same colour without that being done first = pointless

Information provision has nothing to do with paint schemes.

I agree entirely, and even when unified information and ticketing have been brought in, it will still be pointless. My point is that I don't think Dempsey or the DTA actually are going to instigate a repaint.

Maybe I picked up on this wrongly, but I detected a general sentiment against a single brand, based on a false claim that it would involve painting buses and trains. Obviously information and ticketing are the most important issues, but a single brand for them is pretty important too.

[Colm R]

Originally Posted by eoin

I agree entirely, and even when unified information and ticketing have been brought in, it will still be pointless. My point is that I don't think Dempsey or the DTA actually are going to instigate a repaint.

Maybe I picked up on this wrongly, but I detected a general sentiment against a single brand, based on a false claim that it would involve painting buses and trains. Obviously information and ticketing are the most important issues, but a single brand for them is pretty important too.

A simple brand is important. 100% agree with you.

But the priority of this is all wrong. The function of the DTA comes first.

For various reasons, some people here and elsewhere believe that the DTA and Government will use the paint job to give the impression that the system is integrated without it actually being so.

My reason is I don't trust the Government to do the right thing. They have failed in the past in transport and other area. I had hoped that this would be different and they would deliver whats needed.

But when they talk about rebranding first, it smacks of:

"Oh look at us, the colours are lovely, aren't we great".

And in 2012, "we delivered an integrated transport system, aren't we great".

Integrated is when you get off your train in Navan and buses will be meet the train to go to various parts of Navan and its surronds, and you need just one ticket.

If this Government was able to think long term (which they are unable to do) they would realise that a rebrand could happen over time through end of life and maintenance of the trains/buses etc.

[Garrett]

Branding should be on the tickets first and foremost. This will be visible to everybody instantly. It will also put pressure on the DTA to get integrated ticketing up and running because they will be seen as being responsible for tickets.

Below I've attached an example of an RER ticket I recently bought in the Paris region. The ticket was issued by the RATP. The transport authority is called the STIF. Note that the ticket has no date as I haven't validated it yet. I can hold onto this ticket for years and it should still work the day I decide to use it.

[MOH]

The article's been fairly well taken to pieces over on boards/commuting + transport

[Baz]

Why not strip the paint off everything, clear varnish and make everything 1950's retro... oh maybe re-instate the "Snail" logo for all transport... In London their heritage routes operate full services!

[Mark Gleeson]

Given the flying snail actually predates CIE and was the Dublin United Transport Company logo it would be perfect for a logo and save all the money on consultants

Obviously all over green is a no no on accessibility grounds since doors need to contrast, bit of green, grey and some black as the London Midland use in the UK works very well

Bear in mind suburban trains have been painted green here going back as far as the 1830's

[Baz]

Bear in mind suburban trains have been painted green here going back as far as the 1830's

I love heritage... Cough... Now change it and stop making a fuss - if they want everything to work well maybe William Martin Murphy might have a great grand child willing to come on board to CIE

But seriously if anyone wants change... don't ask Fine Fail... after all Fail is in their name

[bigjim]

Just had a look at the DUTC logo and it looks good. Don't think there's any need to rebrand everything though, just stick a DTA logo on the side off everything.