Sail & Rail

[Traincustomer]

Just been reading the previous interesting post about the Eurolines journey.

Having observed the London coach at Busáras on numerous occasions (whilst waiting for a provincial bus) it has been my experience that it being close to full is the regular situation whereas its counterpart to Leeds is not as busy but nonetheless used. I've very rarely used the London coach but on numerous occasions have used the Dublin-Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds one - it gives a through journey (not possible by rail). Though it's always my experience that the London coach gets priority at Holyhead's immigration check which is fair enough on account of the higher numbers and longer journey.

Bus Éireann employ a supervisor/inspector at Holyhead to oversee things. Same member of staff I understand will also oversee any passengers joining at Holyhead (e.g. someone travelling Holyhead to Manchester). This is why after the immigration check is complete the coach usually drives around to the Eurolines stop in the Port Bus Station.

The economy fare has a limited allocation and applies to passengers who book a week or more prior to travel but the disadvantage is that no refunds or amendments are allowed. The Bus Éireann e-ticketing for this service is a fairly recent thing but I fully agree the ticket types need to be explained better.

Like SailRail, it is possible to purchase an Eurolines ticket that commences from most provincial towns in Éire to your destination town/city in Britain. Bus Éireann market Eurolines reasonably well.

That London traffic was horrendous.

A thought I had is that perhaps UK immigration could take place at the ports on this side. Pretty much like the US clearance at Dublin Airport. But on second thoughts there may not be much merit in doing so - it's time on one side or the other regardless!

An item of good news on the SailRail front is that: Irish Ferries are soon to introduce an online booking system for SailRail ex Éire to Britain. The facility is promoted in their 2011 brochure but not up and running yet.

[ThomasJ]

Thanks for the information cavanrailbus.

It will be interesting to see how this new 01:30 ex holyhead fairs, where will it go to?

Also regards the evening stena sailing ex Dublin take footpassengers?

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Cavanrailbus

The economy fare has a limited allocation and applies to passengers who book a week or more prior to travel but the disadvantage is that no refunds or amendments are allowed. The Bus Éireann e-ticketing for this service is a fairly recent thing but I fully agree the ticket types need to be explained better.

Thanks for explaining that!

Good news on the new train time, it definitely makes it a viable alternative but only if it goes direct to London.

[Traincustomer]

Glad my bits were of some interest.

I'm afraid I don't know the destination of the new circa 0130 train ex Holyhead but understand it to be an Arriva Trains Wales train thereby eliminating a direct service to Euston. I suspect it may be too early to head down The Marches line to Cardiff so Birmingham may be a reasonable guess at to its destination. Another possible destination is Manchester Airport as it could also pick-up from key North Wales stops for there. The first Crewe to Euston train is currently the 0536 (arr. 0728) Virgin Trains so even a 0135 departure from Holyhead will mean around an hour's wait at Crewe. Not perfect but still it's much better than the present lack of a connection.

On the Eurolines issue - several auxiliary coaches were provided at the time of the volcanic ash.

Liked that idea Colm of doing the immigration onboard the ship. Certainly saves time but agree with the practicalities being questionable. For instance, where would it be carried out onboard and would there be two sittings? I tend to like to watch the ship sail and dock as would others and if one needed to get a meal immediately upon boarding it wouldn't be bnice to endure a check first.

Yep, the 0820 and 2115 Stena Line sailings ex Dublin Port carry foot passengers though the 0215 and 1600 don't.

[Eddie]

That's great news about the 1.30am train. Presumably Stena and IF jointly have enough clout to put pressure on the train companies to operate a service.

I would guess it goes back to wherever the incoming connecting train for the night-time ferries originates from. It wouldn't surprise me if this currently goes back empty at present.

Won't be trying that London coach service in a hurry - thanks for the report by the way - the delays and full coach make it sound very unappealing.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Won't be trying that London coach service in a hurry - thanks for the report by the way - the delays and full coach make it sound very unappealing.

I forgot to mention, on my way back (ex-London at 1750, ten mins ahead of schedule) there were only 10 of us on the coach leaving London and less than 20 leaving Birmingham so there were two seats per person. We got held up quite a bit leaving London but managed to make good time on the M1 and M6 so we sat in Corley for 1h10. After that, we arrived at Holyhead about 5 minutes before boarding started so I guess they timed the break just right.

We had to go through again C&I at Holyhead but since it was much quieter (we were the last coach instead of the first), it didn't take very long.

[quartz]

For those of us booking in the UK, the Sail & Rail website has now disappeared and the previous dedicated call centre is no more. Instead customers are redirected to the main Arriva Trains Wales booking call centre (non-UK based) or website.

I made a booking using the old S&R call centre just last week. This UK-based call centre was excellent and the staff were experts in the service.

Based on my first experience of using it this week, I am very disappointed. I spoke with an agent who initially told me I needed to ring the previous S&R booking number. When I explained it no longer existed, she tried to make a booking for me. However she was totally unfamiliar with the service and was unable to find my Irish destination on her system. She then suggested I check the thetrainline.com website. Although Arriva Trains Wales and thetrainline.com websites now allow standard Sail & Rail journeys, neither include all Irish mainline train stations in their systems. I will now have to visit a mainline station to book my ticket!

Can anyone tell me if through journeys can be booked on the Fishguard – Rosslare route; for example, Cardiff via Rosslare to Dublin? I read somewhere that onward trains from Rosslare are not allowed on S&R tickets, despite it being possible to book trains from any UK station to any Irish station?

Although I thought there may be changes to S&R after Deutsche Bahn bought the Arriva group, I am surprised at the lack of any publicity on the changes to the booking systems and I also note that a price differential has appeared whereby the fast ferry is now more expensive than the conventional one.

[Thomas Ralph]

That's rather wearisome. Especially the recommendation to use thetrainline.com, which charges a booking fee that can be avoided by using the train operating companies' websites (even the ones that use thetrainline's engine!) I just went to East Midlands Train and had no hassle picking out a journey from London to Cork.

Do be aware that not all Irish stations are available for bookings (nor have they ever been). The National Rail system only includes major Intercity stations, and Boyle. You can normally book somewhere a stop or two later, but you're out of luck if you want to book somewhere between Ennis and Athenry, or Carrigtwohill or Midleton. There is a list of equivalencies in the National Fares Manual stating that if you want to go to X, use the fare to Y instead, but this requires the clerk to (a) know the list exists and (b) know how to issue a manual fare; most don't.

So what station were you trying to book to?

[Burkey]

Originally Posted by Traincustomer

Glad my bits were of some interest.

I'm afraid I don't know the destination of the new circa 0130 train ex Holyhead but understand it to be an Arriva Trains Wales train thereby eliminating a direct service to Euston. I suspect it may be too early to head down The Marches line to Cardiff so Birmingham may be a reasonable guess at to its destination. Another possible destination is Manchester Airport as it could also pick-up from key North Wales stops for there. The first Crewe to Euston train is currently the 0536 (arr. 0728) Virgin Trains so even a 0135 departure from Holyhead will mean around an hour's wait at Crewe. Not perfect but still it's much better than the present lack of a connection.

Traincustomer, Do you know anymore about the 01 30 train ex Holyhead?
Is it going to happen, and what is it's destination?

[Traincustomer]

Afraid not. On July 18th Arriva Trains Wales released all five of the September 15th to December 9th timetable booklets (online PDF versions). I looked at book 4 (which covers North Wales and also lists ferry times to Dublin and Dún Laoghaire) and the first weekday train ex Holyhead is still at 04.25hrs.

The timetable booklets have since been recalled presumably to allow amendments and or corrections be made.

More significant changes seem to be on the cards for the December timetable change.

I think the reason a train around 01.30 ex Holyhead hasn't been reintroduced thus far is because of the cost of providing security (possible rowdiness of a minority of passengers under the influence of alcohol). A train at this time would presumably also serve Bangor city and this could coincide with the finishing time of clubs at weekends. The vast majority of ferry passengers and clubbers conduct themselves very well - it seems to be on account of the minority that don't and the attendant security cost that such a train has not and potentially may not be introduced.

The overnight Eurolines/Bus Éireann coach services through Holyhead have a zero tolerance approach to any out of order behaviour (and rightly so) but managing the train environment is somewhat more difficult.

If any early hours train ex Holyhead is introduced at a future date it would need to serve either or both Chester and Crewe to provide meaningful connectivity into the wider British network. A 01.30 ex Holyhead would reach Chester around 03.05/ Crewe around 03.30. The first Crewe-London train is not until 05.36. For the Ireland to London traveller it just means replacing a four hour wait at Holyhead with a two hour wait at Crewe – still far from ideal.

A through Holyhead to London train probably couldn’t be justified.

Best overnight option ex Ireland is Eurolines/Bus Éireann via Dublin-Holyhead or – if suitable – SailRail via Rosslare-Fishguard which does have an overnight option without prolonged waits.

[Eddie]

Not too long ago there used to be a 1.50am to Birmingham from Holyhead, arriving 3 hours later. This used to connect with a train to London not too long after 5am, which I caught once, arriving into London about 7.15am. That's only an hour earlier than the direct train leaving Holyhead now at around 4.20am, two and a half hours after the old 1.50am train.

Rosslare option has got more tempting recently with the introduction of €9.99 fares on all trains from Dublin.

What happens to the incoming trains into Holyhead that arrive to connect with overnight ferries? Do they go back to Chester empty or just stay in Holyhead overnight?

[Traincustomer]

Several trains are stabled at Holyhead overnight, both Arriva Trains Wales and Virgin Trains. There's a depot a short way outside the station (Valley/Bangor side) where I believe cleaning and fuelling (and possibly some servicing) takes place.

If ever the need arose the fourth platform (the platform 2 facing side of platform 3 so to speak) could be brought back into use.

[Burkey]

Originally Posted by Traincustomer

Afraid not. On July 18th Arriva Trains Wales released all five of the September 15th to December 9th timetable booklets (online PDF versions). I looked at book 4 (which covers North Wales and also lists ferry times to Dublin and Dún Laoghaire) and the first weekday train ex Holyhead is still at 04.25hrs.

The timetable booklets have since been recalled presumably to allow amendments and or corrections be made.

More significant changes seem to be on the cards for the December timetable change.

I think the reason a train around 01.30 ex Holyhead hasn't been reintroduced thus far is because of the cost of providing security (possible rowdiness of a minority of passengers under the influence of alcohol). A train at this time would presumably also serve Bangor city and this could coincide with the finishing time of clubs at weekends. The vast majority of ferry passengers and clubbers conduct themselves very well - it seems to be on account of the minority that don't and the attendant security cost that such a train has not and potentially may not be introduced.

The overnight Eurolines/Bus Éireann coach services through Holyhead have a zero tolerance approach to any out of order behaviour (and rightly so) but managing the train environment is somewhat more difficult.

If any early hours train ex Holyhead is introduced at a future date it would need to serve either or both Chester and Crewe to provide meaningful connectivity into the wider British network. A 01.30 ex Holyhead would reach Chester around 03.05/ Crewe around 03.30. The first Crewe-London train is not until 05.36. For the Ireland to London traveller it just means replacing a four hour wait at Holyhead with a two hour wait at Crewe – still far from ideal.

A through Holyhead to London train probably couldn’t be justified.

Best overnight option ex Ireland is Eurolines/Bus Éireann via Dublin-Holyhead or – if suitable – SailRail via Rosslare-Fishguard which does have an overnight option without prolonged waits.

I would like to see the 01 50 ex Holyhead re-introduced as it was very handy for linking into the WCML! I have read elsewhere that Scotrail are going to ban any passengers that are under the influence of alcohol during certain periods. It remains to be seen how they implement this, but if Scotrail can do it, then there should be no reason why it can't be enforced on the North Wales line?

[Thomas Ralph]

Not quite. They are banning open containers and drinking on board between 2100 and 1000, or possibly 2200 and 0900 (can't remember which).

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Cavanrailbus

2. An "overnight" train ex Holyhead circa 0130 is to be reintroduced in the new timetable from May 22nd. This will give a connection out of both sailings from Dublin Port viz. the 2055 hrs. Irish Ferries Ulysses (arr. 0020) and 2115 hrs. Stena Line Stena Adventurer (arr 0030) so no longer will there be a need for a prolonged wait for the first train at 0425.

Where did you hear this? I've plugged the time and date on www.thetrainline.com and nothing new is coming up yet for after 22 May.

[Traincustomer]

I was told it in good faith and legitimately as a result of representations I've made on the SailRail issue since 2009. I do not wish to go posting details of Manager X in Company Z type of stuff here other than to say I'm just a humble user and not party to any inner workings but wouldn't have been told this in the correspondence I received if it wasn't true and going to happen.
Timetable should be out in next few weeks which will give exact details.
Hope this reply doesn't come across as being short as it's not intended to be

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Where did you hear this? I've plugged the time and date on www.thetrainline.com and nothing new is coming up yet for after 22 May.

I recommend not using that website as it charges more than booking through any train operating company's site.

Having said that, www.nationalrail.co.uk isn't finding it either. It may not have been loaded into the system yet.

[Mark Gleeson]

The UK system normally loads 8-12 weeks out so if its not there now its likely not going to be there. If it is, it assumes there is a connection somewhere to get you to Crewe

I would ask all posters not to post timetable information like this until there is positive proof of the exact timings and running dates, this is of even greater significance with international journeys

[ThomasJ]

Seen as though we were talking about this earlier, I saw these faqs on the arriva sailrail website
http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/SailRail/FAQs/

Which routes can I travel on?
Available for standard class travel from any station in the UK to and from Dublin via Holyhead.
Available for standard class travel from any station in the UK to and from Rosslare via Fishguard.
Available on all rail operators’ services.
Please note: if you would like to travel from the UK to Belfast via Stranraer, please visit First ScotRail’s website for further information.

Which Irish stations can I travel to?
SailRail tickets are available to most stations in Ireland.
Please note: for online sales, you can only purchase tickets to the following Irish Stations: Dublin Connolly, Dublin Ferry Port, Dublin Port Stena, Dun Laoghaire, Rosslare, Cork and Limerick. Other Irish stations will be available on the online booking system from May 2011.
If you wish to purchase SailRail tickets to other stations not listed above, please visit your nearest railway station.

[Traincustomer]

While I posted it in good faith and with a helpful intent, I have nonetheless removed a section of my original post.