Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > General Information & Discussion > Events, Happenings and Media
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 07-10-2017, 11:09   #1
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default Western rail corridor (WRC) - Capital Plan

https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wor...-capital-plan/

Good to see that the Capital Plan includes rail infrastructure for the future. Existing rail infrastructure could not be put in place today because of cost so we should develop what we have inherited, connect it up and allow rail to be a part of Ireland's commitment to the 2030 UN Sustainable Development Goals.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-10-2017, 14:58   #2
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default Bereft of ideas

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...-36206695.html

CIE tend to run down a service firstly, making it unattractive then claim that the low passenger numbers show that it is a failed line and recommend closing. If the service and price was good rail would be used more often. In Europe at weekends there is often a half price offer to attract families and fill trains at off peak times.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-10-2017, 19:59   #3
ACustomer
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 646
Default

Not the dreaded WRC again!. We have just had the opening of a 500 million stretch of Motorway right alongside the Ennis-Athenry route. This is at a time when Dublin's inadequate transport infrastructure arguably adds to Dublin's housing problems. I would spend money on DART underground (and not the mickey-mouse scaled back version proposed a couple of years ago).

Also Brexit will require reorientation of traffic away from UK ports as a way to Europe, and hence places like Rosslare should play a vital role, so we will need better links to the South-East, not the North West. (Sorry if this touches the F-word!)

Do we have a transport minister or is he too busy trying to be justice minister?
ACustomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 07:41   #4
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 897
Default

I would be enthusiastic about DART underground if I I thought it would yield anything approaching the benefits claimed for it. Simply connecting the Docklands to Pearse station and sending all Maynooth and Newbridge trains to/via Docklands would be just as effective at a fraction of the cost. As for the WRC there are regional and strategic reasons to extend to Tuam and Claremorris. Galway in particular, is a rapidly growing city and would benefit from improved rail links.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 12:23   #5
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default WRC

I dont think that we should be exclusive in our thinking in that rail works best when well connected. I agree that Rosslare now becomes more important w Brexit but the NW would also benefit if Sligo, Tuam etc were linked via Limerick to Rosslare. Linking a line to the airport is well overdue whichever way it happens.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 14:40   #6
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,472
Default

WRC doesn't meet the financial case to be supported, it doesn't work with the cost benefit analysis. The cost to subside is way to much and the passenger numbers on the Ennis Athenry section today are driven mainly by aggressive fare discounting so the overall revenue isn't increasing as the yield is being sacrificed to make the passenger numbers look better.

Much better spend the money on Athenry Galway and close the rest, focus on actual demand and local development and keeping the distances reasonably short to maximise efficiency and to immediately make a clear statement that rural sprawl will not be rewarded, if you want a train live near major cities.

DART underground would result in a reduction in subsidy in Dublin due the economy of scale and volume, it actually can make a surplus

There isn't the population density to support the WRC and the last thing we want to do is to in any way to encourage people in Ennis to commute to Galway, or even worse Claremorris to Galway, thats a crazy idea and giving in to those kind of requests have massively increased costs in Dublin as places like Longford, Gorey Athlone which are 80 odd miles from Dublin are afforded commuter services which cost a fortune to operate.

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 10-10-2017 at 14:43.
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 14:54   #7
Traincustomer
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ar an traein
Posts: 547
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Much better spend the money on Athenry Galway and close the rest, .
As in close Ennis-Gort-Athenry or not reopen to Tuam etc...?

Ennis-Athenry is there so should be made a go of as should every other open line. It's not as if anything meaningful will be achieved by saving a few million and South Wexford is a recent example of that. The money will be dripped away elsewhere and closure savings are frankly token amounts in the grander scheme of things.
Traincustomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 15:45   #8
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 790
Default

Exactly. Closure savings are negligible compared to what can be achieved elsewhere.

Maybe close one or both of Ardrahan or Craughwell as they are tiny and just slowing the service down. I'm not sure InterCity trains should be stopping at Oranmore or Sixmilebridge either, but the towns are worth serving, so in the absence of a local commuter service, there's not much alternative.
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-10-2017, 18:28   #9
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default WRC

Longford, Gorey Athlone commuters.......

Whats the alternative...... to have everybody living in Dublin? There is a housing shortage in Dublin meaning those working and studying in the city have little option but to commute. Youth studying in Dublin appreciate the train service on an early Monday morning from these towns. The Limerick - Galway passenger figures have surpassed CIE expectations and indeed the same argument was trotted out when Knock airport was being developed that it was not viable yet it is providing a valuable service to the West today. Rail infrastructure around the country is invaluable in a country that is over dependent on road transport and against the UN sustainable development 2030 goals.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2017, 10:02   #10
ACustomer
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 646
Default

A few points:
Ennis-Athenry has new infrasctructure and the financial impact of closure would be relatively minor. North of Athenry is a totally different ball game, even ignoring low traffic levels. The very considerable capital costs are relevant to any decision, whereas the capital costs of Ennis-Athenry are sunk costs and therefore irrelevant. If I had to put in new investment, a few bob on a crossing loop at Sixmilebridge might not go astray.

Goods, you say
Quote:
Longford, Gorey Athlone commuters.......Whats the alternative...... to have everybody living in Dublin?
Very long-distance commuting is in large measure a response to hopeless transport and planning decisions within 20 to 30 kms of Dublin. DART underground and other investments complementary to it would enhance the quality and quantity of commuting from a relatively small distance.

I propose a new variant of Boyle's law (remember, For a fixed amount of gas, pressure and volume are inversely proportional). This reads, for any railway project, the political pressure is inversely proportional to the likely volume of traffic.
ACustomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2017, 14:53   #11
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,472
Default

Lets get one thing very straight about numbers

Target was 250k Ennis Athenry, 125-140k is the best done so far, this is a fact. Adding in Galway Athenry and Ennis Limerick is a classic smokescreen to inflate the numbers

What is shocking is despite the 21st century infrastructure and automation its loss is still significant. Closing it doesn't really save much but it does save on the operating costs and requires minimal redundancies. Nenagh on the other hand what you are mainly saving is the future costs of major engineering works.

There is a huge question of efficiency, we cannot fund a frequent all day commuter service to Longford, Athlone, Gorey, its mostly carrying air around apart from some demand in morning and evening, folks then complain they have no late night service etc. If you choose to live 80 miles away then you will only get a basic service. Thats not sustainable development we are actually encouraging people to build cheap one off houses in Longford and to spend 2 hours each way on a train, its not a way to live.

Prior to the introduction of Longford Dublin it was Mullingar Dublin, 50 miles a reasonable cut off distance, there was a plan for a late evening post 9pm train, once the service got pushed out to Longford the evening train plan was scrapped as the numbers could no longer stack up.
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2017, 17:21   #12
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default WRC

[i]"What we have instead is a motorway plan which is not rooted in sound traffic management or sound financial management. That has been proven", and a plan estimated at 5.6 billion could now cost up to 20 billion.
Mr Sargent said that a trick employed by contractors had become systematic, where they put in a bid "low enough to get political support and once accepted the claims are maximised to ensure that the overrun is not 20 per cent over, which is the average internationally, but 86 per cent of the cost"

Its interesting how some stress the capital cost of rail development particularly in cases where the infrastructure such as the permanent way is already in place like the WRC. Such infrastructure could not be purchased today yet its in the states hands and can be developed at a fraction of the price of roads. In terms of rail we must have the foresight to project forward. But for the fact that the Harcourt line permanent way was maintained the likelihood of the Luas line to Ranelagh and beyond might never have happened. Maintain the option and plan for a future that certainly will not be based on petrol/diesel cars or trucks.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13-10-2017, 16:24   #13
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default Athenry WRC map

https://www.google.ge/search?q=weste...K4VMLPjP6uY1M:

WRC has to be one of the best connected lines in the country intersecting with main line routes at Limerick, Athenry, Claremorris and Collooney. Athenry has just been named as the location for Apple info centre so having rail links will be an added attraction.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13-10-2017, 20:06   #14
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,472
Default

Data centres look big, employ tiny numbers of people once built, could get by with less than 10 per shift

We can thank CIE for it since they laid a fibre optic cable along the WRC 15 years ago

Really grappling for straws here
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 14-10-2017, 09:13   #15
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 897
Default

What Mark says about says Data Centres omits to include suppliers, outsourced support staff, building maintenance and others I can't immediately think of. The numbers employed in total may not be huge but there are other contributions including construction employment, support for renewable energy and conmercial rates. More importantly other employment and activity may follow in the area with obvious societal and region benefits.

As for the WRC, the case for completion may not be overwhelming but despite motorways Galway is a heavily congested city and both it and it's hinterland would benefit from improved regional rail links. The other key advantage of re-instating the Athenry to Galway line is that it would allow diversion of freight traffic destined for Waterford away from the Kildare bottleneck.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 14-10-2017, 10:34   #16
Thomas Morelli
New to the board
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Lets get one thing very straight about numbers

Target was 250k Ennis Athenry, 125-140k is the best done so far, this is a fact.
In what year were 125-140k journeys made?
Thomas Morelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 14-10-2017, 12:08   #17
Jamie2k9
Really Really Regluar Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,986
Default

Quote:
As for the WRC, the case for completion may not be overwhelming but despite motorways Galway is a heavily congested city and both it and it's hinterland would benefit from improved regional rail links. The other key advantage of re-instating the Athenry to Galway line is that it would allow diversion of freight traffic destined for Waterford away from the Kildare bottleneck.
This is such a myth.

Yes divert via West of Ireland, and require 2 loco changes (?) and take just as long as current paths do. Not to mention the cost of manning Limerick J-Waterford to service the route combined with little spare capacity between Ennis-Limerick.

The current schedules were designed to cut costs and don't have much impact. It would be cheaper to return to the evening runs at a 23.30-00.00 arrival and avoid any congestion at Kildare.
Jamie2k9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 15-10-2017, 12:21   #18
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 897
Default

There is some capacity between Ennis and Limerick and more could be added relatively easily, if required.

Why would there be a requirement for two locomotive changes on freight trains routed via the WRC. I can see that there might be one change but two ????
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 15-10-2017, 13:30   #19
Jamie2k9
Really Really Regluar Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
There is some capacity between Ennis and Limerick and more could be added relatively easily, if required.

Why would there be a requirement for two locomotive changes on freight trains routed via the WRC. I can see that there might be one change but two ????
Wasn't sure of how the connection works at Athenry.

Whatever way people try to dress up the business case, spending millions to divert 6 return workings per week doesn't and will never stack up.

The project needs to be shelved, it would only for our unstable Goverment it's still been "talked" about. I can't see that changing if there is another election either.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 15-10-2017 at 13:43.
Jamie2k9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 15-10-2017, 14:38   #20
Goods
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 36
Default WRC

The reason WRC is important is that this is not about today and the six trains you mention, this is about the future.
Going on that logic the Harcourt line in Dublin should have been built on and there would never have been a Luas because putting that type of infrastructure in place today would be impossible.
Brexit means Rosslare is more important and links to it by rail are a solution for the future. Ireland is obliged under UN sustainable goals 2030 to move away from car/truck petrol-diesel as all our fuel is imported. Electric trains will be the way to go. Dublin Cork line is too busy.
Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:21.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.