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Unread 15-04-2016, 15:27   #1
James Shields
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Default Wheelchair user left on train

A friend of mine who is a wheelchair user was assisted on to a DART at Bray. Unfortunately, the staff forgot to tell the driver, and forgot to phone her destination. When she arrived at her station, nobody came to meet her and the train continued on. Apparently the emergency button didn't work, but she eventually got a message to the driver and the situation got sorted, but it really is very poor treatment of a passenger with mobility needs.
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Unread 15-04-2016, 15:33   #2
Mark Gleeson
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Its unacceptable

Wasn't this morning by chance at Sandymount?

If the red passenger communication button was pushed and no reaction occurred this is a serious safety issue as to continue requires the driver to press a button otherwise the train will stop. That should be reported to the CRR, www.crr.ie
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Unread 18-04-2016, 11:31   #3
Thomas J Stamp
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i assume this is the same person who tweeted about her experience. she said that the wheelchair button didnt work.

there was a guy on liveline during the week with similar experiences.

I remember Derek and I were planning on getting a wheelchair and cataloging the experience of the DART for a day. In the end we didnt need to go that far, as those who remember the "lifts not working thread" will recall.
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Unread 18-04-2016, 19:36   #4
James Shields
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My friend has written a pretty detailed blog post on the incident (actually incidents - she also had trouble on the way home).

http://daniellelavigne.com/post/1430...f-friday-april

The Mirror has also picked up the story:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...lchair-7778471
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Unread 19-04-2016, 07:33   #5
Mark Gleeson
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Made the indo this morning also
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Unread 19-04-2016, 09:39   #6
James Shields
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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-34639787.html
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Unread 03-05-2016, 18:12   #7
James Howard
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This seems to be usual lack of attention to detail the impacts the worst on those with physical disabilities. I rarely take 29Ks these days but I noticed over the weekend that the same PA issue that I first noticed 12 years ago on these trains still happens where they announce Edgeworthstown as Longford. I've long since given up reporting stuff like this to Irish Rail - I think I've reported this about 5 times over the years.

This sort of thing isn't that big a deal to those who don't depend on these aids but these trains have now been in service for 14 years - you'd think they would get around to sorting stuff like this out by now.

In fairness, they have been getting better over the years. At least they've done stuff like use accessible platforms as much as possible whereas before they would have had an up platform and a down platform and the passengers would have to cross the tracks instead of the train.

The problem with Irish Rail and Ireland in general is that we love a hard case. We'll go all out to fix a problem but we seem to be extremely bad at putting systems in place to avoid the problem in the first place.
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Unread 04-05-2016, 10:42   #8
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PA's and displays have many problems on many classes of train, so nothing new, It amazes me how Irish Rail can get it so wrong when it should be something relatively simple. All of the 29k, 22k, 2700 and 8500 class are woeful. As I tell people who come to Ireland, timetable is your best friend, it's the only passenger information you can rely on!

However it seems that there is a new software update rolling out over the 85xx class at the moment, at least I think it is new, since they have do not put your feet on the seats in Irish and English on the displays as well as being announced, which I've never seen before in 18 months of taking the DART every day.

They have however appeared to abort the fully Irish 81xx class upgrade which broke a system which worked fine and appear to have rolled back to the older version on the units that got the upgrade which was reliable, unlike virtually every other type of train.
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Unread 04-05-2016, 17:33   #9
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The timetable isn't an awful lot of use if you have a serious visual impairment. It is quite ludicrous how much rubbish they clutter up the displays and announcements with. The 22Ks have a brilliant system that tells you how far away the next station is which is great in the winter where you can't see out and you need 2 minutes to pack away a laptop and related paraphernalia.

But the distance flashes up for about 5 seconds a minute due to the constant scrolling of messages telling you you're in car A, to contact non-existent staff when there is antisocial behaviour, get your feet of seats and not to smoke. Not to mention reeling off every stop between Maynooth and Sligo in both languages rather than just saying all stops to Sligo.

Luas has it right. It just announces the stops in both language and shuts up. While I don't take Luas often, I've not been on one yet where the system wasn't working.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 11:29   #10
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If Irish Rail invest in proper, reliable passenger information systems for the stock they have it would be vastly better, but instead they go for the cheapest systems that they can acquire that is provided in house by the rolling stock manufacturers at bargain basement prices so they can win the tender, therein lies the problem. Unfortunately it's a by product of lowest cost wins tenders. Even though the 22K system is better than the 29K and 85xx system, it still fails far more than it should.

Siemens for all of their faults with refurbishing the 8100 class, put industry leading passenger information systems in their trains, not some cheap off the shelf equipment that was bought in to get the tender to the lowest possible cost, it's no wonder that the systems work vastly better than any of the other stock not to mention look far less of a bargain basement product. You don't see them showing gibberish on the trains at any time.

The Luas again uses an industry leading PIS, even if the screens on the 3000 and 4000 class were bargain basement, the underlying system is a good one.

It's all very well saying that people can't read timetables and I agree that they can't, and Irish Rail should make large print version avaliable, but you simply cannot trust the displays of a large majority of the Irish Rail fleet.
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Unread 07-05-2016, 16:52   #11
Colm Moore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Howard View Post
Luas has it right. It just announces the stops in both language and shuts up. While I don't take Luas often, I've not been on one yet where the system wasn't working.
They've actually added a new message, asking people to move along the carriage, away from the doors, but yes, 'keep it simple, stupid' works.

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If Irish Rail invest in proper, reliable passenger information systems for the stock they have it would be vastly better, but instead they go for the cheapest systems that they can acquire that is provided in house by the rolling stock manufacturers at bargain basement prices so they can win the tender, therein lies the problem. Unfortunately it's a by product of lowest cost wins tenders.
There is no obligation to use the lowest tender. 'Most economically advantageous' and 'beauty contests' are not unusual. For example, many contracts for light bulbs would specify 'most economically advantageous', as the main cost of replacing light bulbs is the staff cost, not the light bulb cost. This results in (nominally more expensive) high-quality light bulbs winning out over cheaper, poorer-quality bulbs. The bulbs are then systematically replaced every 1-2 years during intermediate maintenance instead of on an ad-hoc basis. The user would be impacted by very few failures.

For something like a PIS on new trains, one would investigate the market to see what is available and specify the minimum functionality required, one can then either include that minimum functionality required in the main contract or use a nominated subcontract process to specify a particular product / PIS manufacturer.

Of course, drivers also need to tell the system correctly what service they are operating. This seems to be a a particular problem with Dublin Bus.
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Unread 07-05-2016, 18:40   #12
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Of course, drivers also need to tell the system correctly what service they are operating. This seems to be a a particular problem with Dublin Bus.
Without wanting to drift off-topic, I'm just curious what the problem is with Dublin Bus?

Virtually all the buses I get have the correct destinations on display?
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Unread 08-05-2016, 13:00   #13
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Yes, perhaps we're drifting off-topic.
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Without wanting to drift off-topic, I'm just curious what the problem is with Dublin Bus?

Virtually all the buses I get have the correct destinations on display?
There are separate, unconnected systems on the buses.

The number on the front, side and rear of the bus is set by dials that are positioned above the driver's right shoulder. It's easy for a 14 to be a 15, many passengers won't know the difference and won't get on. I'm not sure what sets the destination at the front of the bus or the internal displays.

The RTPI system gets it's information from the driver logging-in to the ticket machine and depends on the drivers entering the correct departure code. Incorrect code and one ends up with a 'bus' on the RTPI system that doesn't show up and an actual bus that shows up that isn't on the RTPI system. This leads people to think "No bus for 30 minutes, I'll walk", when there is actually a bus in 10 minutes.
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Unread 08-05-2016, 15:44   #14
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Yes, perhaps we're drifting off-topic. There are separate, unconnected systems on the buses.

The number on the front, side and rear of the bus is set by dials that are positioned above the driver's right shoulder. It's easy for a 14 to be a 15, many passengers won't know the difference and won't get on. I'm not sure what sets the destination at the front of the bus or the internal displays.

The RTPI system gets it's information from the driver logging-in to the ticket machine and depends on the drivers entering the correct departure code. Incorrect code and one ends up with a 'bus' on the RTPI system that doesn't show up and an actual bus that shows up that isn't on the RTPI system. This leads people to think "No bus for 30 minutes, I'll walk", when there is actually a bus in 10 minutes.
The external and internal destination displays on buses are NOT set manually - they are set when the driver logs onto his ticket machine.

I don't think drivers logging on incorrectly on buses is a particular problem - that's why I asked. It's the first I've heard of there being a "particular" problem (suggesting it's widespread) with it.

I've certainly never heard of drivers entering the incorrect route number before.
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Unread 09-05-2016, 19:30   #15
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Quote:
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For something like a PIS on new trains, one would investigate the market to see what is available and specify the minimum functionality required, one can then either include that minimum functionality required in the main contract or use a nominated subcontract process to specify a particular product / PIS manufacturer.
Indeed, but how can you explain the crazy situation on the 85xx units was able to win a bid, I'm unsure if the system is just crap, or there is actually three or four different systems on them that simply do not play together, if it is the later, then surely it cannot be economical to have that many systems although if they do it explains why they are crap.

I think they are separate systems as its possible for the internal, external displays and announcements to all to have different things on to each other even on a train of four cars, how they can lose sync with each other I have no idea, but the Siemens solution where everything is operated from one system and always tallies with each other is vastly better, the screens are vastly better quality as well and very rare that they fail.

The exterior screens on the 29k and 22k class are also crap and look like something that was bought from the lowest possible bidder and frequently are broken or displaying gibberish.

[quote=berneyarms;77614]The external and internal destination displays on buses are NOT set manually - they are set when the driver logs onto his ticket machine./QUOTE]

It used to be that way years ago I know, but not for a while now.
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Unread 14-05-2016, 15:50   #16
Colm Moore
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Indeed, but how can you explain the crazy situation on the 85xx units was able to win a bid, I'm unsure if the system is just crap, or there is actually three or four different systems on them that simply do not play together, if it is the later, then surely it cannot be economical to have that many systems although if they do it explains why they are crap.
I suspect a large part of the problem exists with the data, not the equipment.
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Unread 14-05-2016, 16:10   #17
James Howard
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I couldn't swear to the problem at Edgeworthstown being consistently wrong every time as I very rarely take a 29K down. If it's consistently wrong, it has to be data - if it's intermittent, it is hardware. The real problem is that the problem persists 12 or 13 years after the trains went into service on the line. There is no excuse for that.

The driver even notices now and then and makes an announcement to disregard the automatic announcement but whatever work practices are in place obviously don't allow him to report the fault to somebody who can do anything about it and actually gives a damn.

I've also noticed that a lot of the 22Ks welcome you on board as the train is arriving into a station - i.e. they seem to be playing the departure announcement instead of the arrival announcement.

Is this kind of stuff really that hard to get right? I've never observed banjaxed PIS announcements anywhere else other than Ireland.

I suspect the problem is cultural more than anything else because I can remember the old scroll destinations on Dubin Bus and Bus Eireann being incredibly unreliable back in the early 90's when I was a student in Dublin - and it was the same on DARTS - you'd often seen southbound DARTs going to Howth. You have to care enough about something being right to be bothered about making it better.
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Unread 16-05-2016, 17:25   #18
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"This train does not stop between Howth Junction and Connolly Station" upon arriving at Kilbarack this morning. Classic.

Indeed it probably is data sets to some degree, but it doesn't explain why one class of train is vastly more reliable than the rest unless there is some kind of software issue or people simply are clueless when it comes to setting it up, both of which I can quite imagine would be possible in Irish rail

Of course it is entirely possible that the 8100s had their system programmed by Siemens since I know that in the UK, the PIS system on Siemens projects is something that is done as part of the build and delivery cycle and as part of the contract, whereas some rolling stock operators just supply the instructions and are on hand to support, but the work is normally done post delivery by the operator themselves.

It's hard to judge the software on the Asian built units, since it's hard to find other trains with the same systems in them in Europe to know if they are just crap software or cheap hardware. If those Tokyu Car trains were in the UK and popular in Europe and they all had similar problems in other countries it would be obvious the systems are crap, but if it was just Irish Rail it would point to something close to home.
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Unread 28-05-2016, 10:05   #19
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Saw a 85xx class with what I thought initally was a software upgraded, on the side screens it showed Greystones in big two line letters.

Then it started scrolling all the usual messages, in two line deep text, that usually showed on the inside, including about CCTV. Inside the display started to alternate between "Next Station, Destination and Irish and English, without actually specificying what they were. appears the displays got muddled up.

Got on the train and heard "This train does not stop between Howth Junction and Connolly Station, Next Station, Killbarrack."
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