Coolmine - south bound ticket machines and why to never board without a ticket

[Coolmine99]

As anyone using the recently installed south bound ticket machines at Coolmine probably knows, these are of mixed reliability (i.e. either not working, or accepting laser / C Card only). I tried to use these on Monday morning, and ended up boarding the train without a ticket hoping to pay in Peasrse as the machines appeared to have frozen and were 100% not working. This option was also chosen by several other commuters in the queue. This was reasonable course of action given the torrential rain, and the fact that the barriers were down. Wrong move - as I came foul of a rather rude offical at Pearse at the otehr end. A couple of things:

I know I was in breach of the famous "bye-laws" (which, incidentally are not to be found on Irish Rails website). However, you would expect some flexibility in this case. I produced a recently expired annual card (my second consecutive one) and last week's weekly ticket, as well as explaining the situation at Coolmine that morning. Not exactly the modus operandi of a serial fare evader.

The attitude of the guy at Peasrse was nothing short of a disgrace. He firslty said he would ring the station to check this out, but said I needed to give my name and address first. He wouldn't explain why he needed this - despite my repeated requests for such personal information - so I might have been a bit (ahem) forgetful exactly where I lived exaclty, knowing where this was going. Low and behold, after I gave my details, he proceeded to tell me a fine will be in the post. He refused to ring the station as he had promised, and proceeded to walk off from my protenstations - ognoring me as if I wasn't there. Great way of treating 'customers'.

To be honest, the combindation of the torrential rain, over crowded trains that apear to run on random time table (never mind the complete lack of information when trains run late / don't show up, missing or wrong information on th train panels, etc), rude and ignorant IR staff, some of whom have personal hygiene issues, is making a 1.5 hour commute by car from Coolmine to town starting to look attractive.....

[Mark Hennessy]

I've noticed that the machines with the new software are very slow.

There is no apparent response from the machines a lot of the time and they are not very customer friendly at all in their current operation (kinda like Irish Rail in general).

It is typical of the Irish Rail laziness that these machines were released to the public without any idea of the effect of the updated software.

I'm not sure of the appeals procedure but there has to be a way to appeal the buy laws as you are not a fare dodger. Certainly putting your case in writing to Paul Slowey would be a start. You should also consider drafting a letter to your local TD's alerting to them the fact that people are being exposed to fines through no fault of their own.

Paul Slowey
Customer Relations Manager
Northern and Eastern
Iarnród Éireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

[Mark Gleeson]

The bye laws require that you intended to defraud the company, which you did not.

The bye laws do not require you to even use the TVM's. You presented yourself in good time and the booking office facilities where inoperative. As Mark has noted there is a sluggishness with the new software, indeed I crashed a TVM recently when I asked for a monthly ticket

The revenue protection unit is based in Connolly, details on the letter you will get.

Even if it goes to court in this case it is clear Irish Rail failed in its duty of care to ensure the ticket vending machines where serviceable. Indeed there may be a data protection act issue as well since you have a right to know why your name was being taken

The law is here http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/legal.php

[Coolmine99]

Lads, thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

You presented yourself in good time and the booking office facilities where inoperative.

.

Well, technically I could have waited for the trains to pass, go back accross the rails, get a ticket from the manned station and get a later train. The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

I did intend to write to IR on this, I was livid at my treatment. Although I applied the same dishonesty displayed by the ticket inspector in being inventive with my address. So I'm reluctant to put it in writing to them (expecting a reply to my address!!). I dodn't want the hassle of challenging penalty. TBH, I have never received as much as parking ticket, so the whol incedent was embarrassing, degrading and frankly unpleasant.

I have used this service since 2001. I have never boarded a train without a valid ticket, this was a once off. It is truly shocking to see how the book can be thrown at you.... next time I will say I got on at Broombridge, as the automatons at Pearse will happily issue you with a ticket for that station...

[Mark]

If you are wearing a suit and say you got on a Broombridge they might not believe you.

[Mark Hennessy]

The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

Tell me about it.

[andyl222]

Goodluck with getting your fine quashed. If you read back to one of my first posts you'll find i was in a similar situation at coolmine when a train arrived early. Only 2 months ago, a garda arrived at my door with a warrant saying i owed irish rail 200 euro. Lo and behold the whole mess unravels, it would seem after my initial emails back and forth with John Byrne in Connolly station my case was put forward for prosecution. I never received a letter from irish rail about the fine, emails from Mr.Byrne were all i had to confirm the fine was still valid. then I never got a summons for the court case, so obviously wasnt aware i was meant to be in court. a year later this gard shows up on my doorstep saying the fine i owe is 140 euro for irish rail and then 60 euro court costs and on top of this i was convicted in my absence. An absolute nightmare, i am of course appealing, the conviction has been set aside and my next court date is in 3 weeks or so. It is a disgrace that irish rails ineptitude and general haphazard manner results in ordinary decent people getting dragged through the already overrun irish courts system.
Again i hope you get your fine quashed, but i fear it won't be that simple. Keep us posted.

[Colm Moore]

I imagine that issuing summons is for the courts, not Irish Rail.

[andyl222]

Originally Posted by Victor

I imagine that issuing summons is for the courts, not Irish Rail.

The reason i never got a summons was due to irish rail's ineptitude when they took my address incorrectly. So I didnt receive a notification stating the fine was still active or a summons to court due to this error on irishrail's part.

[ccos]

The concept of people arriving on time for work is therefore lost on IR.

maybe they all commute by public transport

[Coolmine99]

So it looks like I might expect a burly Garda on my door step in the newar future? Or should I just come clean and try and sort this out before it gets out of hand?

[Mark Gleeson]

Long run it is probably cheaper to pay the fine now, even if you win in court it will cost you at least a half day off work and potentially fees for legal advice and so on. Of course you could lose and pay much much more.

Interestingly the Luas bye laws prohibit you from traveling if all the TVM's at a stop are broken!

Under the bye laws Irish Rail have a fully legit collar, we don't like it but the guy in Pearse caught you traveling with no ticket from a staffed station. The legal requirements of the fine where satisfied. The matters of rudeness should be addressed to Customer Services, Northern and Eastern, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

If this was 3 years ago, I'd give good odds on a win for you but since the Rail Safety Act 2005 rolled in and Irish Rail had a string of non convictions due to the pay and the other end practice, they have change the game plan and rolled out a zero tolerance game and plenty of posters telling you about it.

Edit 21 days are up so the summons is in the post by now

[Coolmine99]

An update - rang Pearse this morning. My fine is being processed and being sent out to my (ahem) wrong address, so i corrected this - I didn't fancy a Garda visit after missing court appearances years down the line, particularly after reading andyl222's experience. Now, if only I had of been as forgetful about my name as well.....I will definitely appeal, and am sending a strongly worded letter to David Finlay at Pearse (Customer Services). Would the fact the guy acted like a complete ingnoramus and breached IR's customer charter help my case? Anyone know if appealing apenalty fare increases it if unsuccessful? I'm sure the details will all be revealed soon.....

[Mark Gleeson]

While Irish Rail where lazy, ignorant and rude they have the whole legal side in their favour. There was a staffed ticket office at the station

Fine is a matter for the judge worse case the fine is 1000 euro, but it is a conviction so that may have other problems for your future. Max for the penalty notice is 100 euro and it disappears there and then never to surface again.

End of the day in nearly every case Irish Rail have always left themselves slightly open to losing. But it all depends on the judge on the day and that is not the kind of thing we are going to guess about. If you do end up in court seek professional legal advice.

[Coolmine99]

OK, thanks. My stock answer in future is that I got on in Broombridge - this seems to work and is legit, as there is no ticketing there at present. Although me being the honest git I am I said I got on at Coolmine. Lesson learned - maybe €50 the poorer, but will go down with a fight..... .

[Mark Gleeson]

As I have posted you never know with the judge. They might have a legit collar but the attitude and general administrative mess that followed is unacceptable. Once you actually get the notice, find out the due date and then argue and you never know. Send any letters by registered post and keep copies.

Don't try the Broombridge excuse, they have been known to send staff out there early morning

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Don't try the Broombridge excuse, they have been known to send staff out there early morning

Yeah, 6-12 months for perjury would be wasted on a case like this.

[Coolmine99]

Lads - relax. I'm not up for a stint in the Joy. I'll read what comes out with the penalty fare - if the appeal is pointless, and means I pay more if I lose (like driving penalty points), then I'll cough up the fine. Although, I like the idea of delivering €50 in 5000 x 1c pieces... keep em busy for a while.

[grainne whale]

Check what bye law you have broken as written on the fine and double check it as they do get their by law numbers wrong, also check that the time of the offence is correct.If this information is not correct then the fine is invalid,write and tell them so.! Best of luck.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Coolmine99

Lads - relax. I'm not up for a stint in the Joy. I'll read what comes out with the penalty fare - if the appeal is pointless, and means I pay more if I lose (like driving penalty points), then I'll cough up the fine. Although, I like the idea of delivering €50 in 5000 x 1c pieces... keep em busy for a while.

That doesn't work - the most anyone has to accept in any transaction is 50 coins.