Irish Rail approaches the last stop?

[dowlingm]

split the difference - a TVM for 90% of fares and an "IE Counter" in a retail space where the ticket office used to be, providing tickets, printed timetables etc.

This model is the way post offices are going after all and the counter surcharge could be done per the suggestion above.

This provides a human presence and awareness of unusual activity - not to mention an opportunity to for people to stock up rather than be forced to bet on whether there will be a trolley on board etc.

Ideally the railway station would become a community hub with other services like car hire/bike hire/tourist office basing themselves there but this would probably entail separating IE from the running of the station area and merely being one more tenant.

[chris]

Originally Posted by Victor

Based on the cost of ATMs, TVMs probably costs tens of thousands of euros each, with fitting costs extra.

Fair point guys. Based on figures from the BART in California, they cost around $45,000=£30,000. So you'd get 7...

Since the budget doesn't go beyond that year though, it's possible it's a trial. I hope so, I love NIR and their staff are the greatest asset, but it can be stressful getting a ticket at morning peak.

dowlingm, I like the ideas, and a lot of that already happens here in Deutschland, but it's the realm of fantasy for IR i'm afraid

[comcor]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

split the difference - a TVM for 90% of fares and an "IE Counter" in a retail space where the ticket office used to be, providing tickets, printed timetables etc.

This model is the way post offices are going after all and the counter surcharge could be done per the suggestion above.

Somebody mentioned The Netherlands earlier and this is the way a lot of the smaller stations have gone there.

There are ticket issuing machines at the entrance to the station, but there's also a Wizzl or Kiosk (the equivalents of Spar, Centra, Londis) and that shop has the ability to issue tickets as well.

Although, some of the smaller stations (Woodlawn, Carrigaloe, anything between Waterford and Rosslare etc.) probably couldn't support a shop on site.

[Thomas Ralph]

I have some issues with the Dutch system to be honest. It's an absolute horror for foreigners to use as there's an extra charge for buying tickets at the counter, but the TVMs don't accept notes, most of them don't accept coins, most of them don't accept credit cards, and most non-Dutch debit cards aren't accepted either.

[comcor]

Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by comcor

Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.

Got stung in Brussels by the weird ticket machines

For large stations, any station where trains start/terminate, where connections are made or any with exit turnstiles they will have to be staffed due a combination of the number of people and train service pattern.

Where a significant demand exists, a ticket vending machine is essential or else the conductor on the train will be swamped, however the capital cost of a TVM isn't far off employing a member of staff for a year and given ticket checks will be needed anyway a conductor could be cheaper over a 10 year period

For routes with a low demand the on train conductor solution works fine. So intercity you need a train manager, regional a conductor.

Everyone has to come face to face with a member of staff during the journey, Irish Rail are losing a massive amount of revenue as a result of making it all but impossible to get a ticket in some cases

Then comes the accident scenario regional/intercity train middle of nowhere, driver trapped/dead etc there isn't anyone onboard to deal with the situation. In a commuter situation its not a long walk to help, passengers would have a good idea of where they are, try that somewhere in south Tipperary

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by comcor

Their machines are, as you mention, pretty poor. Although I was there for work just before Christmas and there seems to have been some progress with the non-Dutch debit cards. My Ulster Bank debit card works in the machines there now.

My BOI one was fine last time I was there but my partner's AIB one as well as each of four different ones from my friends (all UK cards, for the record) did not work.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Thomas Ralph

I have some issues with the Dutch system to be honest. It's an absolute horror for foreigners to use as there's an extra charge for buying tickets at the counter, but the TVMs don't accept notes, most of them don't accept coins, most of them don't accept credit cards, and most non-Dutch debit cards aren't accepted either.

What do they accept?

[al2637]

Sorry, I know the Dutch system is off topic, but to answer the question, they accept a Dutch pin card (debit), which quite literally EVERYONE has. There are always some machines which will take cash, and machines at schiphol and other major stations do accept credit cards.

They are also replacing a lot of the machines now, and the new ones I've seen all seem to take cash. But I'm guessing they'll limit this to reduce the workload of collecting/managing the cash. The only people to pay by cash are generally tourists.

But from an IE point of view, I don't see why we need someone sat in a booking office from first train in the morning, to last train at night. Enough TVMs, or indeed integrated ticketing which can be topped up online/mobile etc etc (again something be rolled out in NL) should easily suffice.

[Thomas Ralph]

A human presence in the station (whether as a ticket clerk, signalman, customer service assistant, or some combination) has a powerful effect at reducing fare evasion, vandalism, and anti-social behaviour. And let's not forget that TVMs in the Dublin suburban area have the sale of child tickets disabled.

[Mark Gleeson]

Seen numbers for a UK outfit, numbers traveling with a valid ticket down from 15% to 3%, revenue up 17% all by having someone at the station 18 hours a day. Those are very big numbers

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

numbers traveling with a valid ticket down from 15% to 3%

"without", hopefully?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Thomas Ralph

"without", hopefully?

Indeed

[chris]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

however the capital cost of a TVM isn't far off employing a member of staff for a year and given ticket checks will be needed anyway a conductor could be cheaper over a 10 year period

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

revenue up 17% all by having someone at the station 18 hours a day

just for the record, you wouldn't be expecting this member of staff to work 18 hours a day?

S'pose you could have vandalism of the tvms from irish rail staff suddenly removed from their cushy jobs a là crazy level-crossing-blocking woman

[Mark Gleeson]

Imagine a route with 10 stations, TVM's cost 20-40k depending on who you talk to, require maintenance, restocking etc. There will be a need for random ticket checks on a regular basis. The cost saving isn't as obvious as it might first look. The TVM's are fairly vandal proof

As I've said NIR seem to do well with the conductor approach, London Overground has delivered a stunning turnaround by simply having a member of staff in the station all day

At 11am this morning I counted no fewer than 14 members of staff on duty in Pearse station (ignoring 4 contractors and 2 engineers). Only 5 where engaged in productive activity (1 ticket clerk, two gate supervisors, one with a brush and another on track inspection) the rest where on the doss, 2 smoking for a start

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by chris

S'pose you could have vandalism of the tvms from irish rail staff suddenly removed from their cushy jobs a là crazy level-crossing-blocking woman

But they'd have to work then.

At moderately busy (duburban/DART) and busy (main terminii) stations, having TVMs and a staff member(s) is desireable.

[Thomas Ralph]

That's pretty much what we have, the unstaffed-at-weekends stations excepted. Around 85% of stations are staffed at least some of the time.

[Alan French]

I think we should object to the withdrawal of Fastrack parcel service. The question is whether it's actually losing money at the margins. In most stations parcels traffic needs no extra staff, so it's extra revenue for little extra cost.

I mentioned this point when writing my submission on sustainable transport last April. My idea was that once any vehicle (train or bus) is making a journey, it should carry as much as possible. (This is also a reason for putting empty train runs into service where possible.) I took the example of someone wanting to send a parcel from Dun Laoghaire to Dublin. The DART may be almost door-to-door, but an unaccoompanied parcel cannot be carried on the DART; a separate road journey has to be made.

I referred to the fact that the parcels service was withdrawn from all suburban stations in 1978, even though for the next 25 years most of these stations had some trains with a guard who could oversee the parcels. I mentioned this a case of RATIONALISING the rail system, rather than making real savings, or checking which traffic is really better carried by road. This is a theme that recurs in my writings.

[Thomas Ralph]

RUI is a passenger organization; parcel/freight isn't really a focus.

[Mark Hennessy]

Originally Posted by Thomas Ralph

parcel/freight isn't really a focus.

I agree that most passengers will not notice this at all but it is symptomatic of the CIE mindset, slash and burn everything and make sure none of the cuts affect anyone in the cosseted upper management. New ideas are heretical to these guys so ending a (very useful) parcel service is the same as slashing useful train services to these plonkers.

Remember, passengers are given about the same level of respect as parcels when it comes to the CIE axe...