Journey times on the Cork Dublin route

[seamus kilcock]

I switched to road transport recently for my trip from Kilcock to Carrigtwohill, Cork.
I joined Motorway at Naas and 1hr 55mins later reached Dunkettle roundabout. Max speed - using the cruise control - 120km.
Door to door time 2hrs 25mins.

Using train would have taken from 4hrs to 4hrs 30mins allowing 1 hour from my Kilcock home to Kildare station, parking car etc.

There is little doubt but the improved road network will result in fewer people using the train. Train journeys in Ireland are simply too slow.

[ACustomer]

There would appear to be little consistency in Journey times: for example the 1200 Dublin-Cork has 3 stops and takes 2h.50m. The 1100 has 8 stops and is scheduled to take 2h.55m.

Either the 1200 is reidiculously padded or the 1100 timing is hopelessly optimistic. In the Up direction there are other examples of afternoon trains which have had several stops added since the withdrawal of direct Limerick services, but have had very little extra running time added.

The 2h35m constraint is presumably because of potential clashes at Limerick Junction if Down trains get there earlier. Recent reductions in platform capacity at the Junction have made this practically impossible to remediate, unless a Down train is scheduled not to stop there, or unless a separate Down side platform is built (at huge expense).

[Mark Gleeson]

It relates more to platform space at Cork as a sub 2:30 time would have both through platforms in Cork blocked.

[ACustomer]

Mark: I'm surprised you think the main problem is at Cork station. There seems to be a policy of using only the Down main (old "arrivals") platfrom, in which case for example the 1500 Down cannot arrive until the 1730 Up has departed. But there are two main through platforms in Cork: using the Up (old "departures") platform is not impossible. No clash with arriving trains.

[corktina]

this policy should be of no surprise since it eliminates shunting moves, something essential for a smooth running regular interval service. Its one of the reasons for switching to fixed formation trains drivable from either end.

What really should cause surprise is why after all this time, a second main platfrom at Limerick Junction hasnt been built. i don't see it as being THAT major an expense.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Mark: I'm surprised you think the main problem is at Cork station. There seems to be a policy of using only the Down main (old "arrivals") platfrom, in which case for example the 1500 Down cannot arrive until the 1730 Up has departed. But there are two main through platforms in Cork: using the Up (old "departures") platform is not impossible. No clash with arriving trains.

Is there an issue with the 22000s on the curved platform?

[dowlingm]

Without giving the technical specifics, is it likely that whatever is keeping 22Ks down to 70mph Cork-Mallow will be resolved to allow 90mph operation, or is this a permanent state of affairs?

[corktina]

i dont think he meant the 22Ks, he meant the older railcars. which I beleive operate the Cobh Cork Mallow services (some at least).

Surely both platforms are equally curved?

[ccos]

The argument over journey times is all well and good but most people dont use a train for intercity journeys because its quicker then a car.
Even with a substantial reduction in Cork Dublin times its never going to be quicker from A to B unless you happen to be going from Lwr Glanmire road to the Guinness brewary wall and that would assume you have to be there around the time the train arrives.

In the much vaunted days of the mark III´s the nonstop train on Sunday evening left at 18.00 (I think) and did the journey in 2.18, but the train before that left about 14.00 taking a bit more then 2 1/2 and the one that left half an hour afterwards .stopped everywhere and took over 3 hours. The effect of this is if I had to be in Dublin at 7.30 pm I had to be getting a train at 2 o clock giving a 5 1/2 hour travel time and if I had to be there at 10 pm I would have had to leave Cork on the non-stop giving me a real journey time of 4 hours despite the train doing the journey in times not seen now. The 2.18 minute journey time was as much use as tits on a fish except to the 3 people on board who had appointments in Dublin at 8.30 pm

Frequency is of much more importance.
With the hourly service there is no more 4 or 5 hour travel times needed, I think more effrort should be put into increasing the frequency at peak times to half hourly, this would have the effect of cutting travel times by up to 30 minutes.
Most intercity rail users care less about they are spending 15 minutes longer on a train then having to waste hours away waiting for the next one.


The first and last segments of any long distance railway journey are always going to throw any time advantage away unless you happen to be just traveling between two major train stations and increases in frequency are more effective ways of reducing journey times.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by ccos

Most intercity rail users care less about they are spending 15 minutes longer on a train then having to waste hours away waiting for the next one.

I disagree. For intercity journeys (probably not commuter) many people are happy to plan their day somewhat around the trip (provided it operates on time) and would prefer a shorter journey time.

[corktina]

Originally Posted by seamus kilcock

I switched to road transport recently for my trip from Kilcock to Carrigtwohill, Cork.
I joined Motorway at Naas and 1hr 55mins later reached Dunkettle roundabout. Max speed - using the cruise control - 120km.
Door to door time 2hrs 25mins.

Using train would have taken from 4hrs to 4hrs 30mins allowing 1 hour from my Kilcock home to Kildare station, parking car etc.

There is little doubt but the improved road network will result in fewer people using the train. Train journeys in Ireland are simply too slow.

its also way cheaper by car too...has Inter City had its day?

[James Howard]

I would concur that you can definitely beat journey times in the car. I can manage door-to-door from Ardagh, Co. Longford to work on Sir John Rogersons quay in about 90 minutes outside of rush hour - the recession helps a lot here. But of course, I currently travel at rush hour so that isn't much use. The fastest I can do it on the train including travel time at either end is almost exactly 2 hours. So car beats train for raw time (but not for useful time as I can spend the 90 minutes on the train usefully engaged).

I do agree that running times are going to become a serious competitive issue for Irish Rail over the next few years given that the average speed possible on the roads has gone from about 45 MPH to 60 - 65 MPH. The morning commuter trains from Longford manage about 35 MPH average and the intercity trains manage a whopping 45 MPH. I read a couple of years ago that the running times are about 1 minute slower than the express trains from 1906. They were a lot worse in the early 90's but the fact remains that the Sligo line has had new track, signals, rolling stock and about half of the level crossings automated over the last 10 years. There has been an improvement with the 6:58 from Longford being replaced by an express but the the 6:15 is now 4 or 5 minutes slower to Pearse than it was five years ago. Similarly, the 18:05 to Longford takes 5 or 6 minutes longer than the old 18:10 intercity service that it replaced.

But cost is a different matter entirely. With an old petrol car, you are looking at about 30 euro in fuel, 6 euro in tolls, about 25 euro a day to park in town plus 15 quid in maintenance. Which give you a total of 76 euro or 51 if you have "free" parking. A modern diesel car will save you a tenner in fuel and a fiver in maintenace but add about 20 euro in depreciation.

By comparison the train will cost 2 euro for parking, 2 for fuel to the station and somewhere around (I am not actually sure what the fare is as I have a pass) 30 euro on a day return. (or about 7 after tax on an annual pass).

So the train cost is either 11 euro for a commuter or 34 for a walk-up passenger. If you have more than three people travelling then the car makes more sense cost-wise for a walk-up but not for a commuter.

[corktina]

adding in maintenance and depreciation is only really relevant if you buy a car just for commuting. Assuming you are going to have a car anyway, it makes sense to make use of it,especially as most cars are never fully depreciated, most are scrapped with plenty of useful miles left in them (if they were looked after properly in the first place)
also, in the case of someone needing to use the car to get to the railhead (12 miles in my case) mainteance and depreciation would have to added to the train fare. Add to this onward travel from the destination to the workplace.

[ACustomer]

corktina: You can't ignore maintenence and depreciation costs when assessing car versus train. Measuring the "cost" as just the fuel cost (as did the Sunday Times last week) is just wrong. Car servicing and tyre wear are pretty directly related to mileage, and don't tell me that when you come to trade in your car that the price you get will be the same isrrespective of whether it has 30,000 or 60,000 on the clock.

Also in an earlier post you mentioned shunting moves. Moving a train from one platform to another at Cork should be a simple and inexpensive matter, especially as no running-round would be required, and hence no shunter to uncouple and re-couple the locomotive.

[corktina]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

corktina: You can't ignore maintenence and depreciation costs when assessing car versus train. Measuring the "cost" as just the fuel cost (as did the Sunday Times last week) is just wrong. Car servicing and tyre wear are pretty directly related to mileage, and don't tell me that when you come to trade in your car that the price you get will be the same isrrespective of whether it has 30,000 or 60,000 on the clock.

.

and yet the poster im quoting is doing exactly this by not including these items in calculations where he is driving to the station.

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by corktina

and yet the poster im quoting is doing exactly this by not including these items in calculations where he is driving to the station.

You are right - I omitted the maitenance and depreciation on the costs of the local commute. That is because in my case, the car does so few miles that the maintenance has to be done on a time schedule rather than a mileage schedule.

So in my case, I drive a 12 year old Mondeo that is worth essentially nothing leading to zero depreciation and maintenance is about 500 per year. So ignoring all other use of the car, that adds 2 euro per journey to the car's cost. If you wanted to do the numbers on a new car which would depreciate 5,000 euro per year, you arrive at a 20 euro journey cost and now traveling the whole way by car begins to look attractive but only if you like to have a new car anwyay.

You can get away with a a banger as a station car but you cannot if you are doing 40,000 miles per year (which would be my approximate mileage).

[peterh]

Originally Posted by seamus kilcock

I switched to road transport recently for my trip from Kilcock to Carrigtwohill, Cork.
I joined Motorway at Naas and 1hr 55mins later reached Dunkettle roundabout. Max speed - using the cruise control - 120km.
Door to door time 2hrs 25mins.

Using train would have taken from 4hrs to 4hrs 30mins allowing 1 hour from my Kilcock home to Kildare station, parking car etc.

There is little doubt but the improved road network will result in fewer people using the train. Train journeys in Ireland are simply too slow.

The only way for Irish Rail to compete with the motorways is having more direct non stop train services between the 2 destinations,ie Dublin Cork which i know already has a few direct non stop services between the 2 cities but should have at least a few more. The railway service i use is the Dublin Sligo service and every single train stops at every single station on that line so I doubt anything would change about that service any time soon.