Does Waterford-Limerick have passenger potential?

[Thomas Morelli]

Is it definite that this line's potential would be completely gone if the N24 is replaced by a motorway?

I am unsure of this because while road competition does of course limit and sometimes destroy potential for railway lines, the N24 traffic volumes are comparable to the N4 traffic volumes according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland's Traffic Count Data website.

The Sligo line is doing all right, despite the fact that the N4 for the most part varies between dual carriageway and a standard of single carriageway where it is still safe to drive at over 100km/h.

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by Thomas Morelli

The Sligo line is doing all right, despite the fact that the N4 for the most part varies between dual carriageway and a standard of single carriageway where it is still safe to drive at over 100km/h.

The main reason the Sligo line is doing all right is because the N4 is at this stage woefully inadequate beyond Mullingar. At busy times you will inevitably get stuck in a stream of traffic travelling below 80kph for most of the way between Mullingar and Longford. The only dual carriageway is a short stretch around Dromod and a 30 minute wait to get through Carrick is not unusual at busy times.

It is looking very much like an N4 upgrade is on the cards which will inevitably attract a proper private express bus service. This will inevitably mean the end of the train service beyond Longford unless 15 to 30 minutes can be knocked off the journey time which is basically unchanged since the start of the 20th century. The existing road journey is just over 200km, which will be easily achievable by bus in 2 and half hours by motorway.

So the same logic applies to other routes - unless there is investment in rail, it is unlikely that routes will survive the building of parallel motorways. Even with investment the Irish Rail's high cost-base means that low-cost private bus operators are likely to run rings around them on pricing.

[comcor]

One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

[Thomas Morelli]

Originally Posted by comcor

One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

Is that a situation where some of the Limerick to Limerick Junction trains would continue to Waterford?

Should a platform perpendicular to the existing ones be built for these trains?

[comcor]

There can be all sorts of fantasy solutions at Limerick Junction. The ideal is something that looks like Amsterdam Sloterdijk, with lines being grade-separated and platforms that can incorporate trains to every one of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford at the same time, with all being a through train from one of the others.

However, that has to be offset by some reality. Every solution has a price that it needs to justify and then there will also be the thought of the future of the line. That means that priority will go to Dublin-Cork improvements, then to Limerick improvements, and then finally Waterford improvements.

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

[Thomas Morelli]

Originally Posted by comcor

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

Is there a way to use trains from Waterford as Limerick Junction to Limerick shuttle services without limiting journey options that are there now?

A train running from Limerick to Waterford connecting with a train going from Cork to Dublin, for example, would not let passengers coming from the Cork direction to travel to Limerick.

Would it work in this case to have another shuttle train that would go back to Limerick from Limerick Junction when the Waterford-bound one would arrive to keep the possibility of (in this case) a Cork to Limerick service?

[comcor]

There's no particular reason why you couldn't split a train and it's common enough practice in other European countries. Platform 3 should be long enough to support it as well.

So, what you could have is a Limerick-Limerick Junction train that goes to Limerick Junction, with half of it going back to Limerick and the other half going to Waterford.

The Limerick train would need to leave first (giving chance for any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork trains to leave the main line), with the Waterford train leaving later.

There are a few disadvantages
- I believe the 22000s are the only suitable rolling stock, which would mean 6 cars leaving Limerick, with 3 going back and 3 onto Waterford. This seems over-capacity
- It complicates driver rostering
- It can be confusing for passengers, especially in a country where we are not used to this set up
- There would necessarily be a 10 minute or so delay between the train from Limerick and the one to Waterford departing. This isn't much better than the 09:05 service achieves today.
- Any late running of a service on the mainline would necessarily delay the train to Waterford. It's not just a matter of missed connections, but also because it couldn't cross the tracks

None of those would preclude a service. They just need to be taken into account when considering its viability.

[Thomas Morelli]

Originally Posted by James Howard

The main reason the Sligo line is doing all right is because the N4 is at this stage woefully inadequate beyond Mullingar. At busy times you will inevitably get stuck in a stream of traffic travelling below 80kph for most of the way between Mullingar and Longford. The only dual carriageway is a short stretch around Dromod and a 30 minute wait to get through Carrick is not unusual at busy times.

It is looking very much like an N4 upgrade is on the cards which will inevitably attract a proper private express bus service. This will inevitably mean the end of the train service beyond Longford unless 15 to 30 minutes can be knocked off the journey time which is basically unchanged since the start of the 20th century. The existing road journey is just over 200km, which will be easily achievable by bus in 2 and half hours by motorway.

So the same logic applies to other routes - unless there is investment in rail, it is unlikely that routes will survive the building of parallel motorways. Even with investment the Irish Rail's high cost-base means that low-cost private bus operators are likely to run rings around them on pricing.

In relation to the first two paragraphs, point taken.

Is there a chance, then, that the line could survive the building of a parallel motorway if the service is improved?

[comcor]

The most relevant thing is probably that a parallel motorway isn't going to be built any time soon. Limerick Waterford is well down the priority list, with completion of radial routes out of Dublin and Cork-Limerick above it in priority. What all that means is that it is at least 10 years until a motorway is in place and it's probably going to be later than that.

That means that Irish Rail have plenty of time to consider a response.

Can the railway survive a parallel motorway. We can look at how other routes have done.

Those that have done OK fall into two categories
- Ones where the service is fast (Cork/Limerick-Dublin)
- Ones where the bulk of traffic is commuters heading into a city centre(Dundalk-Dublin, Wicklow-Dublin, Kildare/Carlow-Dublin, Midleton-Cork or Athenry-Galway)

The failures have been where the line is slow and the commuter traffic isn't there.

So it's pretty clear what Irish Rail need to do - increase line speed and build commuter traffic into Waterford and Limerick. The problem is that takes money and the projects need to compete with other parts of the network, where the money may see a greater return and where it isn't potentially dead money because other lines aren't in danger of closing.