Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

MaryC · 24-11-2015, 22:54

17:13 train from Pearse now leaves from Connolly

or am I mistaken. Are they nuts. That train is full leaving Pearse and the 17:07 to Balbriggan from Connolly is gone. That was another full train. So if you could make Connolly by 17:12 it's going to be crazy. For those of you who cannot make it, you have to wait till 17:23. So on top of the extra time it's going to take in the morning (trains leaving earlier and getting in later) its going to work out an hour exta a week from leaving home to getting back in the evening. It's a crazy schedule. It's time to start looking at other commuting options.

ACustomer · 25-11-2015, 10:46

More on just how bad these proposals are:

1. The 10-minute fixed-interval DART service. This apparently applies throughout the day. Fine for peak hours but what about mid-morning or early afternoon, never mind later at night? The LUAS does not attempt anything like this: tram intervals range for 3 to 4 minutes at the morning peak to 7 or 8 minutes late morning etc. It must be hugely uneconomic in the off-peak hours to operate a peak-hour service.

2. The slower journey times. OK these are probably a consequence of the 10-minute DARTS, but there is a huge paradox in operating slower trains which reduce line capacity (because by definition they increase time spent in block sections) when the most acute problem is inadequate headway between trains.

Are they stuck with this 10-minute stuff because of some funding arrangement on service levels with the NTA? How slow will things be then the Park Tunnel trains start operating to Connolly?

James Shields · 25-11-2015, 11:26

I think there are some good things. The northern line commuter trains seem to have better spacing, and they no longer serve Portmarnock or Clongriffin, which takes a couple of minutes off journey times.

I can see the earlier morning Enterprise being a huge hit with commuters, and overcrowding seems inevitable. Would there be a case for making the extra commuter train serving just Dundalk/Drogheda/Connolly that's been running ahead of it during the refurbishment a permanent fixture?

James

Jamie2k9 · 25-11-2015, 11:35

Quote:

1. The 10-minute fixed-interval DART service. This apparently applies throughout the day. Fine for peak hours but what about mid-morning or early afternoon, never mind later at night? The LUAS does not attempt anything like this: tram intervals range for 3 to 4 minutes at the morning peak to 7 or 8 minutes late morning etc. It must be hugely uneconomic in the off-peak hours to operate a peak-hour service.

Luas ranges up to 15-20 minutes before close of service, kicks in after 21.00 ish and early morning.

I think it's safe to say it will be 2 coach DARTS off peak and all 4 coach at peak times perhaps. The 10 minute freq is not remotely sustainable after 8pm or before 7am.

It's another ego boost just like the successful 06.15 out of Cork

Anyone able to see what slots have been left for Kildare-GCD?

shweeney · 25-11-2015, 11:46

who benefits from the extra frequency - whilst I like the idea of "turn up and go" most regular commuters get the same train every day - they will now need to get an earlier train to arrive at the same time because of the increased running time.

Irish Rail in the papers today admitting the slower Darts and saying this is a consequence of the increased frequency, but this still doesn't make sense to me - where is the time being lost, dwell times should reduce if anything (and they're already very leisurely).

Mark Gleeson · 25-11-2015, 13:10

The frequency excuse doesn't match, 70 minutes end to end is more than enough

Every minute saved on a DART is a minute saved on a commuter/intercity trip also

Pre 7am and post 10pm there is no justification for 10 minute service, could use the money saved by running 15 minutes interval here to provide the long sought after later services on DART and on Maynooth on a Sunday

James Shields · 25-11-2015, 14:58

Looking a little deeper, the early morning Enterprise leaves Drogheda 07:54 and arrives 08:41, taking 47 minutes.

There's also a non-stop commuter train at 08:20 arriving at 09:09 - 49 minutes.

The rest of the Enterprise services running between Connolly and Drogheda take between 36 and 39 minutes. On the current timetable most take 30 to 35 minutes, and when I first moved to Drogheda there were a few that did it in 25 minutes!

James

Mark Gleeson · 25-11-2015, 15:27

Connolly Drogheda I think got to 27 minutes at best in the very early days, only a 22k/C3K could really do that. 30 miles from a standing start with the first mile at 20mph and 4 miles at 70, then a brief 90 before 50 through Malahide.

There is some fun and games, the 16:53 Pearse Drogheda is overtaken by the 1710 to Belfast between Skerries and Ballbriggan

Inniskeen · 25-11-2015, 18:01

When the upgraded Enterprise started in1997 it was routine to reach Drogheda in under 28 minutes with under 26 minutes not particularly uncommon. My fastest trip was marginally over 24 minutes. So 47 minutes is almost double what uncongested infrastructure would deliver.

The amount of slots north of Connolly allocated to DART is already grossly disproportionate to the traffic carried, the revised timetable greatlly increases the imbalance. Even at the busiest point immeduately north of East Wall Junction DART only accounts for 58% of the numbers travelling.

Interesting this timetable proves my concerns about DART underground - without additional physical tracks trains more DARTs mean more congestion and slower journey times. This is not a strategy that will result in extra business but wiil simply drive people away.

Dublin13 · 01-12-2015, 23:04

As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers.

From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings.

17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction.

17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.

18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services.

This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one.

The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly.

There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.

berneyarms · 25-11-2015, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryC

17:13 train from Pearse now leaves from Connolly

or am I mistaken. Are they nuts. That train is full leaving Pearse and the 17:07 to Balbriggan from Connolly is gone. That was another full train. So if you could make Connolly by 17:12 it's going to be crazy. For those of you who cannot make it, you have to wait till 17:23. So on top of the extra time it's going to take in the morning (trains leaving earlier and getting in later) its going to work out an hour exta a week from leaving home to getting back in the evening. It's a crazy schedule. It's time to start looking at other commuting options.

To answer your questions, as far as I can figure out the new timetable proposes:

Deferring the 16:14 Pearse-Drogheda to 16:23
Deferring the 16:44 Pearse-Drogheda to 16:53
Deferring the 16:50 Connolly-Belfast to 17:10
Deferring the 17:07 Connolly-Balbriggan to 17:12
Deferring the 17:13 Pearse-Dundalk to 17:28
Deferring the 17:28 Pearse-Drogheda to 17:43
Deferring the 17:55 Pearse-Dundalk to 18:03
Deferring the 18:15 Pearse-Drogheda to 18:23

24-11-2015, 22:54	#1
MaryC New to the board Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1	Dublin - Dundalk 17:13 train from Pearse now leaves from Connolly or am I mistaken. Are they nuts. That train is full leaving Pearse and the 17:07 to Balbriggan from Connolly is gone. That was another full train. So if you could make Connolly by 17:12 it's going to be crazy. For those of you who cannot make it, you have to wait till 17:23. So on top of the extra time it's going to take in the morning (trains leaving earlier and getting in later) its going to work out an hour exta a week from leaving home to getting back in the evening. It's a crazy schedule. It's time to start looking at other commuting options.

25-11-2015, 13:10	#6
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The frequency excuse doesn't match, 70 minutes end to end is more than enough Every minute saved on a DART is a minute saved on a commuter/intercity trip also Pre 7am and post 10pm there is no justification for 10 minute service, could use the money saved by running 15 minutes interval here to provide the long sought after later services on DART and on Maynooth on a Sunday __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

25-11-2015, 15:27	#8
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Connolly Drogheda I think got to 27 minutes at best in the very early days, only a 22k/C3K could really do that. 30 miles from a standing start with the first mile at 20mph and 4 miles at 70, then a brief 90 before 50 through Malahide. There is some fun and games, the 16:53 Pearse Drogheda is overtaken by the 1710 to Belfast between Skerries and Ballbriggan __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 25-11-2015 at 15:33.

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25-11-2015, 10:46	#2
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	More on just how bad these proposals are: 1. The 10-minute fixed-interval DART service. This apparently applies throughout the day. Fine for peak hours but what about mid-morning or early afternoon, never mind later at night? The LUAS does not attempt anything like this: tram intervals range for 3 to 4 minutes at the morning peak to 7 or 8 minutes late morning etc. It must be hugely uneconomic in the off-peak hours to operate a peak-hour service. 2. The slower journey times. OK these are probably a consequence of the 10-minute DARTS, but there is a huge paradox in operating slower trains which reduce line capacity (because by definition they increase time spent in block sections) when the most acute problem is inadequate headway between trains. Are they stuck with this 10-minute stuff because of some funding arrangement on service levels with the NTA? How slow will things be then the Park Tunnel trains start operating to Connolly?

25-11-2015, 11:26	#3
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	I think there are some good things. The northern line commuter trains seem to have better spacing, and they no longer serve Portmarnock or Clongriffin, which takes a couple of minutes off journey times. I can see the earlier morning Enterprise being a huge hit with commuters, and overcrowding seems inevitable. Would there be a case for making the extra commuter train serving just Dundalk/Drogheda/Connolly that's been running ahead of it during the refurbishment a permanent fixture? James

25-11-2015, 11:46	#5
shweeney Regular Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 180	who benefits from the extra frequency - whilst I like the idea of "turn up and go" most regular commuters get the same train every day - they will now need to get an earlier train to arrive at the same time because of the increased running time. Irish Rail in the papers today admitting the slower Darts and saying this is a consequence of the increased frequency, but this still doesn't make sense to me - where is the time being lost, dwell times should reduce if anything (and they're already very leisurely).

25-11-2015, 14:58	#7
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Looking a little deeper, the early morning Enterprise leaves Drogheda 07:54 and arrives 08:41, taking 47 minutes. There's also a non-stop commuter train at 08:20 arriving at 09:09 - 49 minutes. The rest of the Enterprise services running between Connolly and Drogheda take between 36 and 39 minutes. On the current timetable most take 30 to 35 minutes, and when I first moved to Drogheda there were a few that did it in 25 minutes! James

25-11-2015, 18:01	#9
Inniskeen Really Regular Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 951	When the upgraded Enterprise started in1997 it was routine to reach Drogheda in under 28 minutes with under 26 minutes not particularly uncommon. My fastest trip was marginally over 24 minutes. So 47 minutes is almost double what uncongested infrastructure would deliver. The amount of slots north of Connolly allocated to DART is already grossly disproportionate to the traffic carried, the revised timetable greatlly increases the imbalance. Even at the busiest point immeduately north of East Wall Junction DART only accounts for 58% of the numbers travelling. Interesting this timetable proves my concerns about DART underground - without additional physical tracks trains more DARTs mean more congestion and slower journey times. This is not a strategy that will result in extra business but wiil simply drive people away.

01-12-2015, 23:04	#10
Dublin13 Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 130	As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers. From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings. 17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction. 17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction. 17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction. 17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin. 18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction. 18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction. 18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin. It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services. This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one. The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly. There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.