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Unread 03-03-2008, 14:06   #1
grainne whale
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Default Stasi at Heuston station

For the last 10 days or there have been Irish Rail officials checking tickets for passengers disembarking at Heuston, fair enough, 1. why do they have the Stasi (Rail Security) with them? 2. after waiting for a train a half hour (this morning at Hazelhatch), they are delaying us (as passengers) again.

Last edited by grainne whale : 03-03-2008 at 14:09.
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Unread 03-03-2008, 14:22   #2
Mark Gleeson
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Quite simple, in the past there have been several incidents where a ticket checker has been assaulted by a fare evader

I can recall a incident where a thug took on a checker in Bray, took quite a beating, driver in a train ran over, also got a beating but they held the guy for the gardai, both staff ended up in A&E. That is the sad reality, we need a formal transport police. Thats a issue we raised and indeed is now in the program for government.

The checks in Heuston will disappear shortly, today is probably a day to grab people on last months monthly tickets
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Unread 03-03-2008, 14:41   #3
grainne whale
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Point taken, however the vast majority of rail passengers at that hour of the morning are on their way to work,and their only interest is getting to work on time. Having that amount of Stazi is overkill, and I (as a woman) find it very intimidating.
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Unread 03-03-2008, 15:14   #4
Thomas J Stamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
That is the sad reality, we need a formal transport police. Thats a issue we raised and indeed is now in the program for government.
Should anyone in a black bovver jacket so much as touch you report it to the gardai. They are not police, they have no powers whatsoever, and given what Mark has said about a proper transport police they are simply an excuse and a cop out for the DoT and DoJ not to actually from a proper transport police.

I have the deatails of a story from another security guard who had an encounter with these lads in Heuston and because of his professionalism he was able to have the culprit given the boot.
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Unread 03-03-2008, 15:24   #5
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Yeah ... got done myself today ..... cost me €50..... fine for not having a ticket.

I usually get a monthly but completely forgot about it this morning. Only had €60 in cash ..... the conductor on the train let me off .... but in hindsight I should have bought a single and maybe try and get it back later when I buy the monthly.

I didn't even give the excuse to the guys at the desk ... my own fault .... we've had enough warnings!

But the guys in the bomber jackets are too much and while there is obviously a need for them , they should be in the background or at least try to look less intimidating. Also, perhaps they should have the same dress code as gardai ...... get rid or the earings and the ponytails .... look a bit professional. Most of the time they just wander around the station in pairs having a great ol chat about something or other (meanwhile bikes getting robbed from the car park !)
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Unread 03-03-2008, 15:30   #6
grainne whale
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Thank you Thomas, each morning I arrive at Heuston I feel quite intimidated by this spectical. I have no reason to find this situation so as I always have a ticket (annual). My daughter who also travels with me finds the whole situation intimidating as well.

Last edited by grainne whale : 03-03-2008 at 15:58. Reason: Adding in the name Thomas
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Unread 03-03-2008, 15:47   #7
James Shields
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I'm not saying we should condone fare evading in any way, but going after people who are a day late getting their monthly ticket is blatant profiteering, and a deliberate attempt to catch out people who make an innocent mistake. These people are not fare evaders, and IE is not losing revenue because of them.

It is the easiest thing in the world to not realise that today is the day your ticket expires. The decent thing to do would be to have a 3 day grace period that allowed you to travel on last month's monthly ticket.

I accept IE are within their rights, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is right.

I agree the Rail Security uniform should be reviewed and replaced with something more professional (though I think it's important ther should NOT be wearing anything that means they could be mistaken for Gardai). My worry now is that after uniform review we'll be met by guys in monkey suits at the platform gates and be told "Sorry, Bud, this train is members only."
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Unread 03-03-2008, 18:39   #8
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With Metro North Railroad in New York City's suburbs, which I consider to be THE best ticketing and fares system in the world, monthly tickets are valid until 10AM the first day of the following month. That allows you to get to work the 1st of the month and presumably get your new monthly ticket on the way home.

Also they have on-board ticket checking/selling for the long distance service it provides, so you can board any train without a ticket but the on board fares are a lot higher.

Fare evasion is a non issue.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 12:29   #9
Mark Gleeson
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No IE staff have the right to restrain you, beyond the usual self defence or coming to the aid of someone being assulted. Tom will be able to explain this better but since IE refuse the right of admission they can throw you out of the station, I've witnessed that at Heuston

The 'stasi' came into being about 8 years ago due to continued violence and vandalism on the northside of Dublin, drivers refused to operate DART services north of Connolly after 7pm. A DART coach was partially burned out by vandals one night while in service with passengers

In correspondence with a senior IE manager we pointed out there is problem on the southside as well (try Bray Summer Sunday evening) and security staff are to be seen now. Late at night it is rather comforting, but a sad reflection on the society that it has come to this

Since these guys are private security aren't they mean't to have clear id shown just like the bouncers at pubs and clubs? We would much prefer a professional transport police force with normal garda powers

Heuston is the only city centre station where exit ticket checks are not routine, everyone going through Pearse queues up ticket in hand each morning and to be fair its at most 30 seconds delay compared to the off peak.

You either have a valid ticket or not, since the heavy mob arrived ticket revenues have increased well beyond passenger number growth which clearly indicates there was a serious problem with fare evasion which the honest majority where paying for

We believe that exit validation gates will arrive in heuston in coming years
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Unread 04-03-2008, 21:45   #10
Colm Moore
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Quote:
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No IE staff have the right to restrain you, beyond the usual self defence or coming to the aid of someone being assulted.
A question for Tom.

Can't IÉ have someone arrested for theft of service? And anyone can arrest for theft.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 23:06   #11
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A question for Tom.

Can't IÉ have someone arrested for theft of service? And anyone can arrest for theft.
No, only the gardai have power of arrest, and even then an arrest has to be lawful. I successfully defended a case last week on the absence of a lawfull arrest by a member of the gardai. Your liberty can only be taken away in accordance with law, as per the consitution, and this is strictly construed by the courts.

There is no such thing as a citizens arrest, although the chances of you being summonsed for it are virtualy nil.
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Unread 05-03-2008, 09:43   #12
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No, only the gardai have power of arrest, and even then an arrest has to be lawful. I successfully defended a case last week on the absence of a lawfull arrest by a member of the gardai. Your liberty can only be taken away in accordance with law, as per the consitution, and this is strictly construed by the courts.

There is no such thing as a citizens arrest, although the chances of you being summonsed for it are virtualy nil.
So what options do IÉ have if, at a ticket check, someone tells them that they are in a rush and can't stop?

Or someone climbs a fence, like the kids do at Donabate, instead of going past the ticket collector at the gate?

Or someone informs them that they have no ticket and casually walks off with a smile on their face?
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Unread 05-03-2008, 10:18   #13
Mark Gleeson
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There is not much they can do, again a proper transport police would work wonders here. Every journey I make I see someone who is breaking at least one of the rules

The classic way out of a Luas ticket check is to walk and keep walking until clear of the platform. Dublin Bus staff have the power of detention according to the bye laws, no one else does
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Unread 05-03-2008, 10:25   #14
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So what options do IÉ have if, at a ticket check, someone tells them that they are in a rush and can't stop?

Or someone climbs a fence, like the kids do at Donabate, instead of going past the ticket collector at the gate?

Or someone informs them that they have no ticket and casually walks off with a smile on their face?
Devil's in the detail. Only the DPP can take criminal cases to court - DPP is not obliged to reveal why he decides not to take a case to court. Therefore your accusation for criminal assault will not get far. Where it does come into play is if you are defending a summons in court and such talk is beyond the realms of this board (in other words it'll cost you )

Now, before we all get accused of publising a handbook for fare evasion - it is an activity which we completely and utterly condemn. We are all in favour of fare evaders being caught, every last one of them, and paying the standard fare and if not, in the full force of the law being applied to them.

So there!!
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Unread 05-03-2008, 10:41   #15
Terrontress
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I suppose they could go to the station in particular the following morning and then refuse entry to the person that refused to show a ticket the night before.

Do it to the person two or three times in a week, in front of the other commuters gathering and being allowed access, they would soon get the message.

Not very scientific but would be effective all the same.
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Unread 05-03-2008, 10:57   #16
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That works, Luas guys taken it one step further and have court orders banning some troublemakers from setting foot on any Luas related property
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Unread 05-03-2008, 11:10   #17
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Now, before we all get accused of publising a handbook for fare evasion - it is an activity which we completely and utterly condemn. We are all in favour of fare evaders being caught, every last one of them, and paying the standard fare and if not, in the full force of the law being applied to them.
For fare evasion alone (as well as safety and security of course ), I am suprised that IÉ doesn't get on the governments back and seek a Transport Gardaí division as Mark Gleeson alreay stated. Every other transport agency/group (RPA, DB etc) would support this.

I think RUI should concider this as a possible campain as it would help to slove many issues.
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Unread 05-03-2008, 11:13   #18
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I think RUI should concider this as a possible campain as it would help to slove many issues.
yes indeed good point. we have been too complacient in just getting it onto the programme for government and leaving it there. There is a real need for this to happen.
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Unread 05-03-2008, 11:19   #19
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It was in the election demands document we produced last year, it is in the program for government (it wasn't in the Green or FF programs before) so we have a success of sorts.

I was lucky enough to attend a presentation given by the Deputy Head of the British Transport Police the week before last years election, I was very very impressed these guys where exceptionally professional and worked hard with the rail companies to deal with problems

It is something we will be following up on, it has the potential to solve so many issues and to eliminate a whole lot of grey areas
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Unread 05-03-2008, 12:54   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Shields View Post
I'm not saying we should condone fare evading in any way, but going after people who are a day late getting their monthly ticket is blatant profiteering, and a deliberate attempt to catch out people who make an innocent mistake. These people are not fare evaders, and IE is not losing revenue because of them.

It is the easiest thing in the world to not realise that today is the day your ticket expires. The decent thing to do would be to have a 3 day grace period that allowed you to travel on last month's monthly ticket.

I accept IE are within their rights, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is right.

"
Sorry, disagree entirely. A ticket has an end date - and that is it. If you start being lenient, boundaries get streched. If 3 days grace was given, people would then want 5 - and so on. Take it from someone who has had responsibility for transport ticketing enforcement of various sorts in the past (not CIE) - zero tolerance is the only answer. LUAS has it right. Yes, some people will be caught out through their own innocent error - as another poster on here has been in this check - but that's life.

I have an annual IE ticket, but as I work in different locations on a cyclical basis, I get a weekly or monthly LUAS as necessary. How do I remember to renew? Put an alarm/reminder for 6am on the appropriate day on my mobile. That way, when I switch it on in the morning, I get a reminder there and then.

LC
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