Automatic ticket checking in Heuston - Page 4

CSL · 07-05-2009, 18:45

so why can't they just change the announcements on the train ?

"Please retain your ticket to allow exit through the barriers"

Mark Gleeson · 07-05-2009, 20:52

You should retain the ticket for inspection at all times, there is no good reason to leave it on the train.

This is the first time any class of check has been applied off train to any Heuston side passengers. This has been a long time coming, there is no note in the timetable for instance.

And the rules about automatic announcements are such that it can't actual say have your ticket ready for inspection

Kilocharlie · 07-05-2009, 21:07

This morning on the 7:40 from Portlaoise, there was an automatic announcement on Automatic Validation in Heuston and passengers were advised to have their tickets ready. The announcement was made as the train approached Heuston.

CSL · 08-05-2009, 11:26

a: the rules can be changed.

b: hitherto, as you got off the train in Heuston you could throw the ticket in the bin in the vestibule on the way out. It's not the change itself I'm objecting, to it's the complete lack of notice on the train that the practice had changed.

Mark Gleeson · 09-05-2009, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSL

a: the rules can be changed.

Irish Rail didn't set the rules, it was the UK actually and now are EU rules

Quote:

b: hitherto, as you got off the train in Heuston you could throw the ticket in the bin in the vestibule on the way out. It's not the change itself I'm objecting, to it's the complete lack of notice on the train that the practice had changed.

There are posters at stations informing people of exit validation in Heuston

zag · 09-05-2009, 19:33

Mark,

Is there any chance you could elaborate on this ? Any time this issue comes up you respond with partial answers like "not allowed by the rules"

Now that someone challenges that by saying rules can be changed you revert to saying who made them up and who 'owns' them now but not by addressing the issue of whether they can be changed or not.

Any chance you might enlighten the mere ordinary people out here in the real world and tell us what the major issue is, what the rule says, why it can't be changed, etc . . .

I mean, does the rule say "Announcements may not be usefull to the general populace." ? No. Does the rule say "Announcements must only refer to conditions onboard the train or related directly to the train operation" ? Maybe. That might explain why they can't tell people to have their tickets ready. For the love of Jaysus will you please put a little more effort into putting information out there rather than sending out teasers which seem designed to let people know that you know stuff they don't and you could tell them but you won't (not "can't").

For all we know they can't tell people to have their tickets ready because it might be against 'disability' regulations since some people mightn't be phyically in a position to have their tickets ready . . . it could be anything. If you know what it is would you just spell it out.

You hint at it by saying that "automatic" announcements can't say to have your ticket ready . . . what about manual announcements ?

z

Mark Gleeson · 10-05-2009, 10:02

There is a rule book called RVAR, its over 100 pages in length and is feared by train builders

It lays down the exact form of words which is acceptable, the timing and so on. Of course Irish Rail don't follow the rules to the letter, NIR do.

Of course you assume the system will be turned on

CSL · 10-05-2009, 14:09

or, when I buy my ticket to Heuston the guy can say " You'll need the ticket to get through the barriers" or the machine can flash up "Please retain your ticket to exit the barriers at Heuston" .

All fairly simple stuff. No posters were visible at Mallow.

You know what it is, for €54 IE made a damn fine job of making me feel embarrassed. Stop sticking up for them, in this case they didn't do a tap to publicise the change.

Darren Bates · 11-05-2009, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Well the construction there looks to be more to do with a office space, possibly a customer service or ticketing thingy, looks rather square and in wood.

A ticket barrier line would be a first seen as a steel plate running across the concourse where the machines will be bolted into later.

Normally there would be a poster clearly saying 'exit validation coming soon'

They have one of these in Dublin Connolly. I'm sure it is a small desk where an official of Iarnrod Eireann will issue the Standard Fare of €50 for having an invalid ticket, a ticket with no ID / age or simply no ticket at all.

plant43 · 12-05-2009, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Irish Rail didn't set the rules, it was the UK actually and now are EU rules

There are posters at stations informing people of exit validation in Heuston

If anyone cares, here's the EU rules (in pdf format)

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...72:0207:EN:PDF

markpb · 12-05-2009, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by plant43

If anyone cares, here's the EU rules (in pdf format)

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...72:0207:EN:PDF

I was almost prepared to read it but at 136 pages, it's a bit lengthy to read over my morning coffee :-) Could some kind person point to the page where it says passengers cannot be told to retain their tickets?

plant43 · 12-05-2009, 08:48

A quick search indicates that no such phrase or anything like it exists in that document. If such a rule exists, then it would seem to be implied (there is a detailed description of what the information system should do in section 4.2.2.8.3. on page 51)

Mark Gleeson · 12-05-2009, 09:18

Its in 13.4 and 13.5 of the RVAR rules

Quote:

The provision of too much or non-essential information should be avoided since it can cause many people confusion and will irritate other passengers. For example, describing catering facilities that are available should be avoided.

I've never heard an exit validation advertisement in the UK, I've been driven mad by them on the commuter services in Dublin

Thomas Ralph · 12-05-2009, 09:24

IÉ fails that one horribly; there are catering announcements after every stop on the Cork-Dublin most runs.

Mark Gleeson · 12-05-2009, 09:27

Not to mention "buy online at irishrail.ie" which scrolls by on he 22k fleet

plant43 · 12-05-2009, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its in 13.4 and 13.5 of the RVAR rules

Which regulations are enforced now?

Mark Gleeson · 12-05-2009, 09:58

None, but RVAR is in the transport sectoral plan for the Disability act 2004

zag · 12-05-2009, 10:25

So, it's not actually forbidden then ?

"The provision of too much or non-essential information should be avoided since it can cause many people confusion and will irritate other passengers"

It can clearly be argued that this is essential information to the customer to avoid being charged a standard fare for a journey they have already paid for.

When will RUI put on their customer advocate hat and push some of these types of points instead of making excuses for IE in situations like this ? I would make this kind of point directly to IE, but I thought that was what RUI was for.

Having signs at the destination telling customers that something is coming is not a lot of use to those people who use the train once or twice a year. What happens if you normally get the train from Galway to Athlone, and just this once you get it to Heuston ? Having Heuston plastered in signs will be of no help at all. It's like having signs land-side at the airport saying that you must retain your boarding card after getting off your plane - by the time you have seen the sign it's too late.

z

markpb · 12-05-2009, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its in 13.4 and 13.5 of the RVAR rules

A major change in the ticket enforcement policy is what I would describe as "essential information". It wouldn't have to be permanently on the announcements/displays, just for a few weeks after introduction. There's no excuse for Irish Rail, they were lazy and didn't think it through and for some reason you're defending them.

iridium · 14-05-2009, 22:46

What's with the 2 second delay between removing your ticket and the gate opening? Might seem a bit nit-picky, but when it's busy all those 2 seconds add up you know!

Can you imagine the exit gates on the London Underground did that - there'd be riots!

07-05-2009, 20:52	#62
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	You should retain the ticket for inspection at all times, there is no good reason to leave it on the train. This is the first time any class of check has been applied off train to any Heuston side passengers. This has been a long time coming, there is no note in the timetable for instance. And the rules about automatic announcements are such that it can't actual say have your ticket ready for inspection __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

10-05-2009, 10:02	#67
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There is a rule book called RVAR, its over 100 pages in length and is feared by train builders It lays down the exact form of words which is acceptable, the timing and so on. Of course Irish Rail don't follow the rules to the letter, NIR do. Of course you assume the system will be turned on __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

12-05-2009, 09:27	#75
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Not to mention "buy online at irishrail.ie" which scrolls by on he 22k fleet __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

12-05-2009, 09:58	#77
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	None, but RVAR is in the transport sectoral plan for the Disability act 2004 __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

07-05-2009, 18:45	#61
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	so why can't they just change the announcements on the train ? "Please retain your ticket to allow exit through the barriers"

07-05-2009, 21:07	#63
Kilocharlie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 395	This morning on the 7:40 from Portlaoise, there was an automatic announcement on Automatic Validation in Heuston and passengers were advised to have their tickets ready. The announcement was made as the train approached Heuston.

08-05-2009, 11:26	#64
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	a: the rules can be changed. b: hitherto, as you got off the train in Heuston you could throw the ticket in the bin in the vestibule on the way out. It's not the change itself I'm objecting, to it's the complete lack of notice on the train that the practice had changed.

09-05-2009, 19:33	#66
zag Regular Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 199	Mark, Is there any chance you could elaborate on this ? Any time this issue comes up you respond with partial answers like "not allowed by the rules" Now that someone challenges that by saying rules can be changed you revert to saying who made them up and who 'owns' them now but not by addressing the issue of whether they can be changed or not. Any chance you might enlighten the mere ordinary people out here in the real world and tell us what the major issue is, what the rule says, why it can't be changed, etc . . . I mean, does the rule say "Announcements may not be usefull to the general populace." ? No. Does the rule say "Announcements must only refer to conditions onboard the train or related directly to the train operation" ? Maybe. That might explain why they can't tell people to have their tickets ready. For the love of Jaysus will you please put a little more effort into putting information out there rather than sending out teasers which seem designed to let people know that you know stuff they don't and you could tell them but you won't (not "can't"). For all we know they can't tell people to have their tickets ready because it might be against 'disability' regulations since some people mightn't be phyically in a position to have their tickets ready . . . it could be anything. If you know what it is would you just spell it out. You hint at it by saying that "automatic" announcements can't say to have your ticket ready . . . what about manual announcements ? z

10-05-2009, 14:09	#68
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	or, when I buy my ticket to Heuston the guy can say " You'll need the ticket to get through the barriers" or the machine can flash up "Please retain your ticket to exit the barriers at Heuston" . All fairly simple stuff. No posters were visible at Mallow. You know what it is, for €54 IE made a damn fine job of making me feel embarrassed. Stop sticking up for them, in this case they didn't do a tap to publicise the change.

12-05-2009, 08:48	#72
plant43 Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 278	A quick search indicates that no such phrase or anything like it exists in that document. If such a rule exists, then it would seem to be implied (there is a detailed description of what the information system should do in section 4.2.2.8.3. on page 51)

12-05-2009, 09:24	#74
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	IÉ fails that one horribly; there are catering announcements after every stop on the Cork-Dublin most runs.

12-05-2009, 10:25	#78
zag Regular Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 199	So, it's not actually forbidden then ? "The provision of too much or non-essential information should be avoided since it can cause many people confusion and will irritate other passengers" It can clearly be argued that this is essential information to the customer to avoid being charged a standard fare for a journey they have already paid for. When will RUI put on their customer advocate hat and push some of these types of points instead of making excuses for IE in situations like this ? I would make this kind of point directly to IE, but I thought that was what RUI was for. Having signs at the destination telling customers that something is coming is not a lot of use to those people who use the train once or twice a year. What happens if you normally get the train from Galway to Athlone, and just this once you get it to Heuston ? Having Heuston plastered in signs will be of no help at all. It's like having signs land-side at the airport saying that you must retain your boarding card after getting off your plane - by the time you have seen the sign it's too late. z

14-05-2009, 22:46	#80
iridium New to the board Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 19	What's with the 2 second delay between removing your ticket and the gate opening? Might seem a bit nit-picky, but when it's busy all those 2 seconds add up you know! Can you imagine the exit gates on the London Underground did that - there'd be riots!