Metro North Route

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by colmoc

eh where is the blue luas line ??

Oops, sorry, just claiming the red one for the real dubs!

[al2637]

I've always thought that the green line should have been blue. That way, when we finally get an integrated system, the current DART could be green! Just seems more appropriate.

[Mark]

If IE had ever taken their head out of their arses they might, just might, have realised how other systems are operated and designated colours and the like. They never quite did and now they are scrambling through the markers set to see what colours the RPA have left them!

[James Shields]

I'm coming to this discussion a little late, but one or two observations...

On the issue of "staring in people's first floor windows", the line would have to be at least 6m above ground to allow all vehicles to pass under, putting it more like the level of people's 2nd floor windows. There would also be two lanes of roadway separating the line from houses, and if people are still worried, they could consider investing in a set of curtains. As to it being ugly, that's down to the architects to get right.

North of Ballymun, the line is expected to swing right to go east of the Ballymun road through Santry Demesne. At this point there should be no problem to drop down to grade as it's off-street. The M50 overbridge should be no higher than any of the road bridges.

Elevated railways can give antisocial elements a place to congregate, but the railway can't be blamed for creating antisocial behaviour, and if people want to misbehave, they will find somewhere to do so. If the Metro is there, it will almost certainly attract some element of that no matter how it's built.

I think most people here will agree that any at-grade solution should be ruled out. At the initial frequency it might be okay, but there's no way it could allow the service to be increased to 90sec intervals.

Cut and cover is not all that different from building it in a trench. You just put a roof on the trench. It may arguably give the best user experience, but the disruption while it's being built would be hellish. Still, a wide straight road like the Ballymun road would be the ideal place to do cut and cover.

The final option of a deep tunnel is worth considering. The tunnel has to be bored a out of the city, and under the airport. I would like to at least see a cost analysis of linking the two so there would be a continuous bored tunnel from the city centre to north of the airport. The tunnel might cost a bit more, but a major part of the cost is inserting the TBM in the first place, so as the tunnel gets longer, the marginal cost of each extra mile goes down. However, the stations would certainly be more cost.

[petronius]

How much extra would it cost to have the Metro north "connect" to a northern rail line route - say at Donabate surely the route from Lissenhall would not be that difficult to facilitate it other than crossing the M1...
It would provide better 2-way traffic to dublin airport -
With intergrated ticketing getting on the suburban rail at Balbriggan and switching to the metro at Donabate(or wherever) and going to the airport or DCU or wherever..
Could the park and ride place at Lissenhall be a cheaper option as a "long term car park" for the airport ???

[Mark Gleeson]

Fingal CC turned down a proposal to reserve a route from Lissenhall over to Donabate which makes talking about it as a option rather pointless. Its important to note a huge lump of metro west has been reserved since 1975. Probably looking at ballpark of 250 million. Given Howth Junc to Ballymun to study stage is already in T21 its not happening in the next 15 years

Lissenhall terminus has been moved southwards slightly to faciliate a later extension by leaving options as open as possible. The car park is looking at 1000 spaces possibly 2000

Integrated ticketing could be implemented on all Luas and Rail tomorrow with zero investment in hardware, its petty infighting between the RPA and IE which make it impossible

[Donal Quinn]

Thsi email was sent around to the 2000 or so people on the DCU staff list

Local residents associations welcome the choice of the central route for
metro north and realise that it will be good for DCU and good for the
local area. They are, however, very concerned about the methods to be
used. Current RPA proposals involve going deep underground only from
Stephen's Green to Griffith Ave. After that, they propose a combination
of methods: cut and cover, open trench, surface and elevated. All of
these alternatives to undergound would wreak havoc with this area.

The RPA are organising an open day in Ballymun Civic Centre on 11
January from 11am to 8pm where all can come and view these proposals.
Residents associations are hoping that all concerned will come along to
be informed and to make their own views known

nice and neutral - 'wreak havoc'!!

[Mark Gleeson]

Of course DCU are getting not one but two stations

One for DCU and another at the new research campus at Griffith Avenue

Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Of course DCU are getting not one but two stations. One for DCU and another at the new research campus at Griffith Avenue

Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT

That's not entirely true, or fair. The second station is for a site which has no current plans and no other connection to the main campus. It's a nice to have but whether DCU will be ready to go when the metro is, is debatable.

Also the traffic on Collins avenue and Ballymun road in the mornings is bad enough already. Major construction work in the area can only make matters worse. No-one objects to the metro, they would just prefer it be built with the minimum of disruption which is hardly a crime.

[Vbold]

Quote

They are, however, very concerned about the methods to be
used. Current RPA proposals involve going deep underground only from
Stephen's Green to Griffith Ave. After that, they propose a combination
of methods: cut and cover, open trench, surface and elevated. All of
these alternatives to undergound would wreak havoc with this area.

***************
I am a resident of the area and do have concerns over the planned route and in particular the elevated section. Firstly to those who claim that the elevated section will look ascetically pleasing, it won't. Many here have held up the bridge in Dundrum as a model of how well "over ground" structures can look however it is a bridge not 2km of 6-meter high track.

I was at the meeting in October and was told that the only reason for having an elevated structure was COST. This was the only reason cited and the RPA were basically trying to cut costs by lessening the amount of tunnelling - which is all fine unless you live there and have to put up with this cost cutting. Roisin Shorthall may be electioneering and probably doesn't really care if it is elevated or not but the local residents Ballymun do care and don't want the RPA cutting costs at their expense.

What I was told at the time was that the tunnel would come up in Hamsted Park. This is to be done by having the entrance coming up through the 6 football pitches and creating a station there. This turns the local park into an over ground metro station, cutting it's size in half and considering the construction and volume of soil removal there will destroy that park. Then the soil will have to travel the 2 km from Albert college up the ballymun road through ballymun and out onto the M 50. If you've seen whitehall in the last 5 years you'd understand why everyone along this route is opposed to that idea.

I cannot see why (except for cost obviously) that the tunnel cannot be extended to the green field site to the east of the m50 ballymun road interchange (either santry demise or on the far side of the M 50). This site would allow much greater access for TBM, soil removal and construction vehicles. There would have to be major planning involved to insure that traffic on the M50 itself is not interrupted however that is better than having one of the main arteries into the city pretty much closed for 3 years.

Do not get me wrong, the metro will be a fantastic facility and will benifit the noth and west side of dublin greatly but it must be done correctly and you cannot just steam roll a community on costs considering how much is being put into the area for regenaration purposes.

[PaulM]

Hi Vbold and welcome to the board.

What I would recommend is that you raise this with the RPA but put it to them that ONLY an underground option is suitable. The surface running option will make a mockery of the word metro. We have enough of a mock transport system in this country and my main concern with this is that it is done properly, this is why I think elevated maybe ok. Either way, the surface option should be ruled out.

[Vbold]

Hi Mark,

I have written to the RPA voicing my concerns over any about surface options for the noth line and hopefully they will listen. The upcoming election will help in making the politicians listen to the residents.

I don't believe the elevated structure is suitable because of the effect it will have on local amenities, the local environment and the visual impact that it will have.

[Mark Gleeson]

In our discussions with the RPA we left the issue of Ballymun to its residents

Our key concern that the metro is built

There where only two realistic options

go over
go under in tunnel

level or cut and cover where out too messy

The downside is the extra tunneling will cost considerably more and will add some months to the project for no benefit in terms of service

[Donal Quinn]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT

veering dangerously off topic but i had to post the latest from the "sean barrett of DCU"

Does anyone else have a problem with the volvo displayed on the helix
plaza along with an advertisement for the latest model? Could whoever is
responsible for this explain to us what it is doing there, what the
terms of the arrangement are and what place this has in a university?

Judging by the vote taken at my debate with the president over the
increasing commercialisation of the university, there is much disquiet
on this issue among university staff. I wonder if even the defenders of
commercialisation can defend this.

the point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....

[Thomas J Stamp]

Hello Vbold, and welcome. As an ex-resident I got the impression from the RPA that they were going to bring the Metro up at the old ESB offices (corner Collins Ave and Ballymun Road) and thus avoid Hampsted Park.

In any event it has to be underground. In the old Ballymun an elevated line could have hacked it, the old road was wide enough, not now, BRL have narrowed it to a main street and an elevated situation will ruin it.

[Vbold]

The downside is the extra tunneling will cost considerably more and will add some months to the project for no benefit in terms of service

Yes it will cost more, but why should we have to take the pain of that cut in costs when the rest of the line in underground. You wouldn't see an elevated sturcture coming up in Tolka park or All Hollows and running up the drumcondra road right through bertie's constituency.

The benifit will be realisable in using a green field site, which is not located in a residential area to bore out the tunnel making the project much easier for contractors, residents and commuters.

I know that it will cost more but if you were facing 3/4/5 years of living next to one of the largest construction sites in the country you would want it underground. Plus I have absolutely no faith in the design or implementation of an elevated sturcture which will be an increadibly imposing structure when finished.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but being from Ballymun myself and talkling to my relations who still live there, it would seem there is woeful ignorance about what an elevated rail metro will look like and many community community spokespeople, and even the likes of Rosin Shorthall seem very eager to contunually hype-up the idea that MetroNorth is to be built on Easternders-style railway viaduct with sheds and lock-ups beneath, or dirty, dark alcoves.

I understand 100% percent why Ballymun folk are so negative about this because they are comparing them to the sheds and garages which are at the bottom of the 8 and 4 story blocks and were for decades perhaps the number one reason for so much anti-social issues in Ballymun. They were pretty horrific and a magnet for all manner of lowlife. This unfortunately is what people in Ballymun think the elevated section of the metro is going to be like.

When I explained to my relatives it is going to look something more like this.

http://www.subways.net/australia/brisbane.jpg

And there will be no issue with looking in people's bedroom window because the tracks will be lined with screens, their whole atitude towards an elevated section though Ballymun changes. The most common comments I got back was. "well that fair enough then, not like what I was thinking it was going to be like at all"

So I personally think the issue here is the RPA need to get up to Ballymun and explain to the people there what the viaduct/piers will actually look like with nice illustations and models. And show best practice versions in other residential neighbourhoods around the world. I bet the whole issue would be resolved very quickly and people would forget about extra tunnelling under Balymun.

If the RPA guys are reading this, then lads give it a go. People in Balymun are not objecting for the sake of it and if you explain to them properly what you're planning they will accept it.

[Vbold]

************************
he point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....

**************************

I am not a anti everything, but I do want the project to be right. The decision will take however long it takes....

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Vbold

************************
he point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....

**************************

I am not a anti everything, but I do want the project to be right. The decision will take however long it takes....

That last line actually made me shudder because it the kind of comment we heard out of North Mayo for the last couple of years by people who simply refused to listen to any facts, reason or unbaised reports.

Vbold, It can be elevated and still be just as built "right" as an underground line. Educate yourself about metros and look at how millions of people around the world are perfectly happy with them on elevated section in their midst. I am not being consending to you - but honestly, there is a whole world of elevated urban metro projects out there.

I would bet if the the RPA decided to go underground a whole other group of people would be screaming "New York-style subway gangs!" or "the buildings above will collaspe!!!!!!" demanding it be built above ground.

and I would bet half the ones who are currently objecting to this elevated idea would jump on that badwagon as well. Don't say this wouldn't happen either because it would.

Please do not turn MetroNorth in another Rossport5 circus or you kill the whole thing off or at best delayed for years and years. Honestly, try to think beyond your own personal expectations and consider the local and national implications of delaying MetroNorth for years and the effects it will have on your fellow Irish citizens. Please consider this before you launch a crusade against a few hundred meters of viaduct.

We expect this GAA-jersey, anti-Irish citizen selfish mindset in rural Mayo, but people in urban areas should be a lot more aware that they have to share this country with their fellow citizen and would at least understand that the needs of the society are more important than personal expectations.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Nigel Fitzgricer

the sheds and garages which are at the bottom of the 8 and 4 story blocks and were for decades perhaps the number one reason for so much anti-social issues in Ballymun. They were pretty horrific and a magnet for all manner of lowlife.

I went to many Discos in the sheds, Nige, and we stored our bonfire stuff there as well. I also used to hide my crossbow there away from my folks, but that's for another thread.

And you're right, it wont be Eastenders type bridges, and for your informaotion it wont be that utopia photo you found either.

The RPA themselfs give us this crappy monstrosity on page one of their options:

http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=152

Which is even awfull with grown trees and on a wonderful day and we both know that most days in Ballymun are wet and miserable.

The civic square was sold by BRL to Ballymun as the cornerstone of the redevelopment, to take away from wide spaces and open places that was mostly what Ballymun consisted of. Now here comes the RPA planning to stuck this pile of rubbish on it and have the monorail from the Simpsons down the middle - a middle what was elimiinated because ther divided the commutinty - and is now being recreated.

So bloody what if it takes longer to do it right? Do you advocate the usual way of doing things (like Connolly LUAS stop) and have no future proofing at all?