[2-6-2007] 2 enterprise failures

[Sean Daly]

Found this on CAF's website regarding NIR's new trains

Type of vehicle:
Diesel unit basically consisting of three cars, and an intermediate car which may be added or removed to form units with 2 to 4 cars. The operator can create consists with different number of units to a maximum of 12 cars.
Unit intended for local and regional services in Northern Ireland. The units are also designed to meet the requirements of the Railways of the Republic of Ireland as six of these trains will provide a cross border service between the cities of Belfast and Dublin. The units comply with British Railway Standards (RGS), this is a new standard related to interior shocks (AV/ST 9001), British legislation regarding safety (Safety Case) and accessibility for disabled persons

Regards
Sean

[Mark Gleeson]

Only 6 of the 23 C3K sets comply with all Irish requirements, but all 23 are allowed to run to Dublin subject to a 23 year old understanding. Its all academic anyway since the exact same rules apply north and south

Its damn fine train and decimates the Enterprise point to point timings

Best of all the nice people in Translink had the cop on to program the PIS system so when it does show up in Dublin it works perfectly

[MrX]

Could the 'Enterprise' (De Deitrichs) not be replaced by a small extra order of 22000 Mitsui DMUs ?

Can really see no advantage to it, as unlike the MK3s or CAF Intercity coaches they can't even do 200km/h!
The DMUs would be at least capable of doing 100mph and have good accelleration and reliability.

[Terrontress]

Originally Posted by MrX

Could the 'Enterprise' (De Deitrichs) not be replaced by a small extra order of 22000 Mitsui DMUs ?

Can really see no advantage to it, as unlike the MK3s or CAF Intercity coaches they can't even do 200km/h!
The DMUs would be at least capable of doing 100mph and have good accelleration and reliability.

I think DMUs should not be used for long, prestigious routes. It is not much fun in first class having a diesel engine beneath you, vibrating away.

Better to stick to loco hauled.

I love the German loco hauled trains which move off with no noise at all.

[dermo88]

By an International comparison, Dublin to Belfast and Dublin to Cork are neither long distance, or prestigious on the basis of population. My personal feeling is that Iarnrod Eireann and Translink are watching developments in Britain in relation to their HST2 project. This is the likely replacement for the 201 Class locomotives in Push/Pull mode on both the Enterprise and Mk IV stock.

DMU's cover similar distances to cities with similar population levels throughout the European Union on a daily basis. They do the job, they are adequate, and most customers are perfectly happy with them.

The only people who dislike them seem to be enthusiasts, although seating arrangements can be the biggest drawback on them.

[MrX]

I really don't think the HST2 will have any impact on the Cork-Dublin project. They simply need powercars, there are a few pretty much off-the-shelf sollutions out there.

Irish Rail plan to use the new CAF coaches for 125mph operation on the Cork-Dublin line. They're fully designed to operate at that speed and that's always been the plan. It's just a matter of a minor tweak to the brake systems and something new to power them.

It's quite unlikely that the UK's HST2 programme will be anything other than a big purchasing campaign of something relatively off-the-shelf too. There are many suitable candidates already designed and in use in the UK.

I really can't see the point of a major upgrade to enterprise. It neither has the population, demand, distance or tracks to make it worth while.
It could benefit however, from a bit of a tweak and perhaps power cars too.

Otherwise, a 125mph tilting DMU might be the best sollution.

I still think it was madness that the Cork-Dublin fleet doesn't tilt!

[James Shields]

Originally Posted by MrX

I still think it was madness that the Cork-Dublin fleet doesn't tilt!

Oh it tilts, alright. It's a shame it's not supposed to...

[James Shields]

Originally Posted by Terrontress

I think DMUs should not be used for long, prestigious routes. It is not much fun in first class having a diesel engine beneath you, vibrating away.

Better to stick to loco hauled.

I love the German loco hauled trains which move off with no noise at all.

The current commuter cars have almost no insulation between the engine and the passengers, so if that's your only experience of DMUs, that's a fairly understandable viewpoint.

I've been on DMUs where you'd be hard pressed to tell there was an engine under the floor. The C3Ks aren't bad in this regard. Hopefully the 22Ks will be better.

The German locos may be quiet, but that's because of they have wires overhead, not because they are loco hauled per say. If they were IC EMUs, I'm sure they'd be just as quiet.

On that note, there would be a pretty strong argument for electrifying Dublin-Belfast. Not only is it a fairly modest distance, but there is commuter potential along the whole length of the line, with commuters into Belfast ant the northern end, local traffic between Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda which have been very local about stronger economic ties lately, and commuter traffic into Dublin.

[byrneeo]

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

The current commuter cars have almost no insulation between the engine and the passengers, so if that's your only experience of DMUs, that's a fairly understandable viewpoint.

I've been on DMUs where you'd be hard pressed to tell there was an engine under the floor. The C3Ks aren't bad in this regard. Hopefully the 22Ks will be better.

The German locos may be quiet, but that's because of they have wires overhead, not because they are loco hauled per say. If they were IC EMUs, I'm sure they'd be just as quiet.

On that note, there would be a pretty strong argument for electrifying Dublin-Belfast. Not only is it a fairly modest distance, but there is commuter potential along the whole length of the line, with commuters into Belfast ant the northern end, local traffic between Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda which have been very local about stronger economic ties lately, and commuter traffic into Dublin.

There is practically no local traffic between these places. Newry customers are 90% going to dublin or belfast based on experience. Also, the station is so far out of town and not served by buses as to be nigh on worthless for those without cars. That coupled with the lack of non-enterprise services to belfast (4 a day ffs, though they are at perfect times for commuters) hardly makes electrification worthwhile, not to mention NIR's massive new expenditure in non-electric trains. Maybe an argument as far as dundalk, but traffic levels between dundalk and portadown hardly justify it, unless NIR expand their Portadown-Lurgan-Lisburn-Belfast-Bangor service to Newry, but given the need for quite a few extra sets to maintain frequency, i don't think that's a possibility. In short... i can't see electrification making sense until NIR need to renew rolling stock... in thirty years.

[Thomas J Stamp]

personally I wouldn't electrify the line. Based on this weeks experiences it'd blow the entire national grid to buggery