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Jamie2k9 · 30-10-2019, 17:31

So approval today for 41 carriages.

The price tag jumped 50 million to 150 million or 3.6m per carriage. The previous orders were about 2.2-4 million per coach.

Anyone explain how there is such a price jump?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-...ete_Online.pdf

James Shields · 30-10-2019, 17:48

Well the cynical answer is simple economics. In the original tender there were multiple bidders competing for the contract. I would assume that if there was any option for extra units in the original contract, it's long expired. Bottom line is there is only one supplier (and certainly only one supplier who can produce them reasonably quickly), and IÉ have to pay what they want to charge.

A slightly less cynical answer is that Hyundai/Rotem have to dust off a 12-year old design for a relatively small production run, so it's only natural that costs have risen.

Jamie2k9 · 30-10-2019, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Shields

Well the cynical answer is simple economics. In the original tender there were multiple bidders competing for the contract. I would assume that if there was any option for extra units in the original contract, it's long expired. Bottom line is there is only one supplier (and certainly only one supplier who can produce them reasonably quickly), and IÉ have to pay what they want to charge.

A slightly less cynical answer is that Hyundai/Rotem have to dust off a 12-year old design for a relatively small production run, so it's only natural that costs have risen.

This is the original contract another operator couldn’t bid to produce them. Yes figures are from 2016 and they would have approached H/R for estimates. 50% increase in 3 years is very high but given the NTA are in charge should I be surprised.

The price made this an attractive option back then (and time), a new fleet could be got for 150 million to do actual commuter work. The benefits are long gone!

ACustomer · 30-10-2019, 21:58

This link is interesting: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...mand-1.3813067

So in March of this year they hoped for 60 to 80 used UK DMUs plus 41 new intermediate units for strengthening the ICR fleet. The 60 to 80 UK units seem to have fallen by the wayside, leaving the 41 Rotems. A gigantic step backwards. By the way is the latter definitely signed and sealed?

The more newspaper reports one reads the more the impression of things being changed from month to month. Does anyone really know what's going on? And I include The Circus employees in that.

James Shields · 31-10-2019, 16:47

I really thought the idea of UK stock was a bit far fetched. The UK have brought in quite a bit of new stock in the last few years, but most trains being replaced are close to their end of life, and I suspect many would be difficult to make comply with current safety standards. What do we want - Pacers?

The 41 extra coaches are at best a stop gap measure to alleviate the worst overcrowding, but I would expect most of that extra capacity will be immediately filled as soon as they arrive.

I believe there's also a process in place to order up to 600 new DART coaches, which would be a mix of all-electric and bi-mode units (I'm not sure whether a decision has been made on whether they will be diesel-electric or battery-electric yet). I think the earliest these would begin to enter service is around 2024.

It should be noted that the 8100 DART coaches will be 40 years old at this point. They still look good after their mid-life refurb, but part of the new order will probably be replacing them.

This should free up most of the Diesel stock serving the Dublin commuter routes, allowing them to cascade on to other routes.

However a lot of uncomfortable commuters until they arrive, and expect politicians to delay the funding and push things back a few extra years.

berneyarms · 31-10-2019, 17:50

The potential GB stock was Class 185 units that were coming off lease from Transpennine Express (TPE), not pacers.

These would have been suitable units, but there has been slippage in the rollout of new TPE trains and they may now be required elsewhere on the GB network.

Jamie2k9 · 31-10-2019, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by berneyarms

The potential GB stock was Class 185 units that were coming off lease from Transpennine Express (TPE), not pacers.

These would have been suitable units, but there has been slippage in the rollout of new TPE trains and they may now be required elsewhere on the GB network.

The chances of 185s coming were always very low, nobody in IE taught it was even a serious proposal.

30-10-2019, 17:31	#1
Jamie2k9 Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,146	So approval today for 41 carriages. The price tag jumped 50 million to 150 million or 3.6m per carriage. The previous orders were about 2.2-4 million per coach. Anyone explain how there is such a price jump? https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-...ete_Online.pdf Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 30-10-2019 at 17:37.

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30-10-2019, 17:48	#2
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Well the cynical answer is simple economics. In the original tender there were multiple bidders competing for the contract. I would assume that if there was any option for extra units in the original contract, it's long expired. Bottom line is there is only one supplier (and certainly only one supplier who can produce them reasonably quickly), and IÉ have to pay what they want to charge. A slightly less cynical answer is that Hyundai/Rotem have to dust off a 12-year old design for a relatively small production run, so it's only natural that costs have risen.

30-10-2019, 21:58	#4
ACustomer Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 767	This link is interesting: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...mand-1.3813067 So in March of this year they hoped for 60 to 80 used UK DMUs plus 41 new intermediate units for strengthening the ICR fleet. The 60 to 80 UK units seem to have fallen by the wayside, leaving the 41 Rotems. A gigantic step backwards. By the way is the latter definitely signed and sealed? The more newspaper reports one reads the more the impression of things being changed from month to month. Does anyone really know what's going on? And I include The Circus employees in that.

31-10-2019, 16:47	#5
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	I really thought the idea of UK stock was a bit far fetched. The UK have brought in quite a bit of new stock in the last few years, but most trains being replaced are close to their end of life, and I suspect many would be difficult to make comply with current safety standards. What do we want - Pacers? The 41 extra coaches are at best a stop gap measure to alleviate the worst overcrowding, but I would expect most of that extra capacity will be immediately filled as soon as they arrive. I believe there's also a process in place to order up to 600 new DART coaches, which would be a mix of all-electric and bi-mode units (I'm not sure whether a decision has been made on whether they will be diesel-electric or battery-electric yet). I think the earliest these would begin to enter service is around 2024. It should be noted that the 8100 DART coaches will be 40 years old at this point. They still look good after their mid-life refurb, but part of the new order will probably be replacing them. This should free up most of the Diesel stock serving the Dublin commuter routes, allowing them to cascade on to other routes. However a lot of uncomfortable commuters until they arrive, and expect politicians to delay the funding and push things back a few extra years.

31-10-2019, 17:50	#6
berneyarms Really Regular Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 602	The potential GB stock was Class 185 units that were coming off lease from Transpennine Express (TPE), not pacers. These would have been suitable units, but there has been slippage in the rollout of new TPE trains and they may now be required elsewhere on the GB network.