Does Waterford-Limerick have passenger potential?

comcor · 14-08-2017, 10:59

One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

Thomas Morelli · 14-08-2017, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by comcor

One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

Is that a situation where some of the Limerick to Limerick Junction trains would continue to Waterford?

Should a platform perpendicular to the existing ones be built for these trains?

comcor · 15-08-2017, 07:56

There can be all sorts of fantasy solutions at Limerick Junction. The ideal is something that looks like Amsterdam Sloterdijk, with lines being grade-separated and platforms that can incorporate trains to every one of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford at the same time, with all being a through train from one of the others.

However, that has to be offset by some reality. Every solution has a price that it needs to justify and then there will also be the thought of the future of the line. That means that priority will go to Dublin-Cork improvements, then to Limerick improvements, and then finally Waterford improvements.

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

Thomas Morelli · 15-08-2017, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by comcor

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

Is there a way to use trains from Waterford as Limerick Junction to Limerick shuttle services without limiting journey options that are there now?

A train running from Limerick to Waterford connecting with a train going from Cork to Dublin, for example, would not let passengers coming from the Cork direction to travel to Limerick.

Would it work in this case to have another shuttle train that would go back to Limerick from Limerick Junction when the Waterford-bound one would arrive to keep the possibility of (in this case) a Cork to Limerick service?

comcor · 15-08-2017, 11:10

There's no particular reason why you couldn't split a train and it's common enough practice in other European countries. Platform 3 should be long enough to support it as well.

So, what you could have is a Limerick-Limerick Junction train that goes to Limerick Junction, with half of it going back to Limerick and the other half going to Waterford.

The Limerick train would need to leave first (giving chance for any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork trains to leave the main line), with the Waterford train leaving later.

There are a few disadvantages
- I believe the 22000s are the only suitable rolling stock, which would mean 6 cars leaving Limerick, with 3 going back and 3 onto Waterford. This seems over-capacity
- It complicates driver rostering
- It can be confusing for passengers, especially in a country where we are not used to this set up
- There would necessarily be a 10 minute or so delay between the train from Limerick and the one to Waterford departing. This isn't much better than the 09:05 service achieves today.
- Any late running of a service on the mainline would necessarily delay the train to Waterford. It's not just a matter of missed connections, but also because it couldn't cross the tracks

None of those would preclude a service. They just need to be taken into account when considering its viability.

Thomas Morelli · 15-08-2017, 14:10

Does adding a second through platform to Limerick Junction to allow a Cork to Dublin train and a Dublin to Cork train to stop there at the same time bring benefits to the Dublin - Cork service?

comcor · 15-08-2017, 14:33

The biggest benefit is that it allows for much simpler operation of the shuttle to Limerick. It's worth remembering that a fairly significant proportion of users of the service are actually traveling between Limerick and Dublin. The demand between Limerick and Dublin is much greater than the demand between Limerick and Cork, so by not having the trains arrive at the same time, it can either lead to fairly empty workings or paying drivers to sit around waiting to operate a service.

There are some direct benefits for Cork-Dublin, most notably that a service that is delayed will not cause problems for platform access for a non-delayed train adding in the other direction. In theory, you could probably do things like driver swaps to help with efficiency of rostering, but that has the drawback of needing one train to arrive before the other can leave.

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14-08-2017, 10:59	#1
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	One of the easiest potential benefits to the line is sorting out Limerick Junction. At some future date, I believe we are supposed to be seeing a situation where both a Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Cork train could stop there at the same time. If that happens, it becomes a lot easier to provide good connections at that end. Ideally, there would be another platform that would allow a Waterford-Limerick (or vice versa) service in at the same time without any silly time-consuming reversing manoeuvres, but maybe that can come if there is an increase in patronage after the connections are sorted out.

15-08-2017, 07:56	#3
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	There can be all sorts of fantasy solutions at Limerick Junction. The ideal is something that looks like Amsterdam Sloterdijk, with lines being grade-separated and platforms that can incorporate trains to every one of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford at the same time, with all being a through train from one of the others. However, that has to be offset by some reality. Every solution has a price that it needs to justify and then there will also be the thought of the future of the line. That means that priority will go to Dublin-Cork improvements, then to Limerick improvements, and then finally Waterford improvements. I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built. Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment. Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford. Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

15-08-2017, 11:10	#5
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	There's no particular reason why you couldn't split a train and it's common enough practice in other European countries. Platform 3 should be long enough to support it as well. So, what you could have is a Limerick-Limerick Junction train that goes to Limerick Junction, with half of it going back to Limerick and the other half going to Waterford. The Limerick train would need to leave first (giving chance for any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork trains to leave the main line), with the Waterford train leaving later. There are a few disadvantages - I believe the 22000s are the only suitable rolling stock, which would mean 6 cars leaving Limerick, with 3 going back and 3 onto Waterford. This seems over-capacity - It complicates driver rostering - It can be confusing for passengers, especially in a country where we are not used to this set up - There would necessarily be a 10 minute or so delay between the train from Limerick and the one to Waterford departing. This isn't much better than the 09:05 service achieves today. - Any late running of a service on the mainline would necessarily delay the train to Waterford. It's not just a matter of missed connections, but also because it couldn't cross the tracks None of those would preclude a service. They just need to be taken into account when considering its viability.

15-08-2017, 14:10	#6
Thomas Morelli Regular Poster Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 36	Does adding a second through platform to Limerick Junction to allow a Cork to Dublin train and a Dublin to Cork train to stop there at the same time bring benefits to the Dublin - Cork service?

15-08-2017, 14:33	#7
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	The biggest benefit is that it allows for much simpler operation of the shuttle to Limerick. It's worth remembering that a fairly significant proportion of users of the service are actually traveling between Limerick and Dublin. The demand between Limerick and Dublin is much greater than the demand between Limerick and Cork, so by not having the trains arrive at the same time, it can either lead to fairly empty workings or paying drivers to sit around waiting to operate a service. There are some direct benefits for Cork-Dublin, most notably that a service that is delayed will not cause problems for platform access for a non-delayed train adding in the other direction. In theory, you could probably do things like driver swaps to help with efficiency of rostering, but that has the drawback of needing one train to arrive before the other can leave.