[Article] Pay and Display on the way

[Rusalka]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 35 cents per km would be more than the car was worth!!!! Per annum!!! Twice over!!! I certainly take your point, but I don't think that's at all realistic, somehow. Certainly not for our car!

We've driven 25000km in the car so far. That's ~ €8960 depreciation or cost of ownership by your estimation (I read that article, actually, and I think they agreed themselves it was a hard thing to quantify, and certainly not a science), but anyway, the car cost about €7000. CMV of the car is now worth about €5800 - €6000 after just over 2 years driving.

At 35 cents per km, you're looking at over €12,000 per annum in cost of ownership alone, if that article is to be believed. That's a bit mad, in all fairness - sure if that was the case I'd be buying a newer (to me!), better car every year!

Lord help us, maybe that's the cost of owning a feckin' Rolls or something, but my car costs nowhere near that! We've lost about €1000+ in depreciation, put 1 new set of tyres under it, and with minor servicing, NCT, etc., but it still works out at only about 8c/km, plus petrol so far.

No, I do see the point you're trying to make, but I think it depends a lot on the car. I don't buy 17" tyres, for example!

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Laois Commuter

Fine. But again, that is your choice. It is rather different to your earlier post "but there is no public transport provided." There is - you choose to go a different way.

OTOH, there is a bus to McGruders Cross, which is 1-2 minutes running time away according to the timetable; not more than 10 minutes walk I would suggest, although I do not know the geography, which gets there at 1743....

LC

True, but that is a suicidal walk along the N2 and you would then need a canoe to cross the Boyne as there is no footpath over it. As for choosing not to use the public transport from Slane, I don't see that there is a choice at all. An extra 40 minutes per day to get the bus from my door compared to driving 11 miles to the train? No choice at all to be made there.

Anyway, never mind. I'll be paying my €8 on Monday morning wether I like it or not, end of story.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

Yep. Even ignoring the "fixed costs" of insurance, tax, and part of the depreciation, servicing intervals will be reduced, tyre replacement will increase, and the journey time may not be quite as reliable as journey planners may suggest. I would also query 15km/litre in the real world - unless you are driving a hybrid, or sticking rigidly to 90km/h or thereabouts on the M7 which I find unlikely. Traffic queues in Dublin would also seriously increase fuel use due to stop start driving.

The cost I worked out was to compare the ticket costs with the UK, to refute the "over-charged" element of the post I quoted. 47 weeks was used, not the 48 you have used, on the basis of 4 weeks annual leave, plus bank holidays, which is the norm.

If you can get to work on the 92, use a bike. I do when working in a city centre office - it takes 10-15 minutes to get to Stephens Green or the ILFC. If I have to go to Dundrum or Stillorgan, I cycle to the Green and get the LUAS. Cycling costs nothing apart from a squirt of oil and new brake pads every now and then.

LC

[ThomasJ]

A flashback [this is in relation to the lack of facilities securitywise and no proper maintenanceetc.]

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...g-1254241.html

Rail chiefs promise motorists extra car parking
By Treacy Hogan and Shane Hickey


Friday December 28 2007

RAIL commuters forced to park their cars at supermarkets and churches before running for the train are being promised more than 13,000 parking spaces at stations.

Drivers will have to pay, but at much lower rates than commercial car parks.

Rail chiefs have drawn up plans to provide new pay-parking facilities at over 60 stations, many of which are packed by 7.30am daily.

The move coincides with major increases in frequencies and capacities of services planned across the network under Transport 21.

The additional spaces will meet current demand and allow for further expansion into the future.

A spokesperson for Iarnrod Eireann said yesterday the spaces will cost €2 a day or €5 a week. The revenue will be used for maintenance of the car parks and the provision of CCTV.
Belt

Highlights of the proposals include: the largest public transport park and ride facility in the country; a 1,200 space car park, north of Dunboyne at the M3 interchange -- the terminus for the Clonsilla-Dunboyne (M3) line, which will serve the wider area of Co Meath and beyond.

It will also feaure major car parks at new stations such as Dunboyne, Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Dunkettle, Clondalkin's Fonthill Road and Oranmore, as well as enhancements to parking at over 50 existing stations, including over 20 in the greater Dublin commuter belt.

As well as expanding car park facilities, work will incorporate enhanced bicycle facilities, and CCTV and other security features.
The programme will be phased in over the coming five years and will be prioritised according to demand, land availability and as planning permission allows.

Dr John Lynch, CIE and Iarnrod Eireann chairman, said yesterday: "It is critical that we open up the benefits of rail investment to as wide a catchment area as possible through the development of quality car park facilities.

"Although this programme addresses over 60 stations, we will continue to seek opportunities for further car park development around our network," he added.

Transport Minister Noel Dempsey TD said: "People can feel re-assured that they can leave their car at a station and take the train to work, thus reducing the hassle of getting in and out of work and improving their commuting experience."
- Treacy Hogan and Shane Hickey

[ThomasJ]

I don't know if mentioned atall but Greystones have all the luck!

Free parking available

Thursday July 24 2008

Greystones commuters will still be able to avail of free parking at the Park n Ride site that is situated within walking distance of the Dart Station.It was announced last week by Irish Rail that charges will be introduced to Park n Ride sites owned by Irish Rail.
Greystones commuters will still be able to avail of free parking at the Park n Ride site that is situated within walking distance of the Dart Station.

It was announced last week by Irish Rail that charges will be introduced to Park n Ride sites owned by Irish Rail.

Councillor Derek Mitchell has welcomed the decision by Wicklow County Council to continue their policy of free parking at their Park n Ride site in Greystones.

The large car park, that is one of the biggest in Ireland with 462 spaces, will remain a free parking site.

Many commuters in Greystones have been confused by the announcement and feared that they would have to pay for parking at the Dart Station.

Local councillors and Wicklow County Council would like to assure commuters that there will be no changes to the free Park n Ride in Greystones.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

Valid point, however you have to drive to the station so the fixed cost of insurance and so on is equal on both options.

Equally as the car is faster there is a value to be gained there.

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Equally as the car is faster there is a value to be gained there.

Generally the car is faster than the train only if the user leaves at crazy hour of the morning. E.g I get the 0823 Newbridge - Heuston, usually gets in in 35-40 minutes. You would be hard pushed to get from Newbridge to Heuston in a car at that hour of the morning in the same time.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Rusalka

I don't buy 17" tyres, for example!

sadly I do, and at over a hundred euro each I have plenty of reason to curse the local authorities of the midlands.

As someone who drives well over 50k a year I just tend to ignore all this depreciation thing. If you start off with a second hand car a few years old then the base line foe depreciation is off kilter to start with. Add to that the emo factor that date-definitive registration brings on and you end up with a shaky science to start with. My car is officially worth nothing here, but up in Dublin it's valuable to a taxi driver, for example.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by chipper

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

This only really hurts you. They have machines to count it.

[Thomas Ralph]

And they probably do something like the Luas machines and only take a maximum of X coins.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by tralph

And they probably do something like the Luas machines and only take a maximum of X coins.

Luas machines work on the basis that if you cancel a transaction you get back the exact coins you put in which does impose a limit

Pay and display machines aren't normally that clever

[Mark Gleeson]

Game is afoot from tomorrow

Park-and-ride charges from tomorrow
Controversial park-and-ride charges at nine commuter train stations come into effect from tomorrow.

Dublin bound rail travellers on the northern line from Dundalk to Portmarnock will be hit with the two euro a day fee.

The other 28 stations from Longford to Gorey also planning to charge will be operational by November.

The plan, which transport body CIE said would finance a car-park expansion scheme, was heavily criticised when it was announced in July with transport lobby groups branding it unacceptable.

Mark Gleeson, spokesman for Rail Users Ireland, said: “It’s absolutely ridiculous.

“People are going to arrive in the car park tomorrow morning and they are going to be faced with a pay and display machine.

“It’s bad enough that you have to pay for your ticket but now you have to queue to use a pay and display machine.

“The worst thing of all is that you elect to be cost aware and buy a weekly ticket, but there’s no guarantee there’s going to be a car space for you every day.”

CIE will receive a €1 million euro-a-year slice of the revenue generated from the parking fees with commuters charged two euro a day or a discounted rate of €8 a week.

The body said the revenue would be put towards a major programme of car park expansion by Iarnrod Eireann.

But Mr Gleeson hit out the justification claiming the organisation has not detailed which stations will be upgraded.

“Irish rail have presented no list of what car parks will be upgraded or in what order and what it will comprise. It’s all aspirational,” he said.

Rail Users Ireland said it is considering taking legal action against CIE over the scheme although it is not clear on what that will be based.

Fine Gael’s Transport spokesman Fergus O’Dowd branded the charges a rip-off and has called for a cut in government subsidies to CIE.

“While I have no problem charging people who park at railway stations infrequently, it is extremely unfair on those who have already bought weekly, monthly or annual travel tickets for their commute, so they should be exempt from the charge,” he said.

“Many commuters either walk or cycle to their local station, but this is not always possible and many have no alternative but to park and ride as there are very few bus links to railway stations.

“There has been no public consultation on this new system, which will hit commuters who are already finding their take home pay reduced because of the spiralling cost of living.”

The stations where pay parking will be introduced tomorrow are: Dundalk, Drogheda, Laytown, Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk, Donabate, Malahide and Portmarnock on the northern line.

An Iarnrod Eireann spokesman said the remaining stations will come into effect by November.

PA

© 2008 irishtimes.com

[weehamster]

This could be a great opportunity for a private operator to start up a local shuttle bus service.

My Sister has a house south of Gorey, and there is a handy regular private shuttle bus service that bring you in/out of Gorey (going by the train station). Now I'm not sure if they do commuter hours, but they should, especially when the Rosslare line starts charging. Now imaging this at other stations.

Imagine tiny villages linking up with a rail station. Oh I would be in public transport utopia. I would think I was living in Germany or Switzerland.

[dowlingm]

except IE should be paying for the buses with the P&R fees, not using it as a general cash grab.

[chipper]

There were noticeably less cars in Drogheda car park at 6:45 this morning. It was quieter than during the best of the summer holiday lull. Considerably less passengers boarded all along the route much to the delight of some people in Rush and Lusk whose bums have not seen a seat in years.

Maybe it was just a quiet Monday morning but with the schools back there should have been a lot more people. I can't believe that many will drive to Dublin because of 8 euro a week. Give it a week or two of traffic jams and I am sure the crowds will be back.

[Mark Hennessy]

Typically there is no info I can see on the Irish Rail website.

No mention of the stations affected today, no mention of the next series of stations to be affected and what dates.

No FAQs for those who will need to pay the charges.
(E.g Q. If I buy a weekly ticket will I be certain of a parking space?
A. Of course not. )

No mention of the enhanced car parking facilities the new charges will help pay for, nothing at all, just hand over the money and get on your train without a whimper please.

Should we be surprised at all?

[ThomasJ]

Just like the DARTTXT scam should IE be forced to put a note on the pay parking notices that buying a weekly ticket doesn't garauntee you a car park space?

[Mark]

It's a turn up and find out mentality.

Im working on a masterplan for a shopping centre in Dublin at the moment and the future of all car parks in Ireland will be ticket controlled car parks. The current incentives are for people to stay less than one hour or 2 as most pricing systems operate with first hour or two free etc.

However you will soon see the short term visitors being penalised with the idea that shoppers should shop less often for longer thus creating less daily traffic.

I very much doubt you will see the US style 'store validation' come in here but parking management is a very big business nowadays.

Alas with Rail stations its not as straightforward. The theory should be that people living within walking distance shouldnt be parking. A fee of some sort would definitely be an incentive for them to leave their car at home.

Should short term stay passengers be penalised over all day commuters etc? Ideally the holder of a monthly or annual pass should be treated as a valuable customer and any parking 'add-on' to their ticket should work out cheaper than for someone like say on a one day tripper or weekly ticket holder.

it could work both ways in this sense - it would encourage buying monthly or annual tickets and thus more train usage and also it would discourage once off day trippers from parking..

Pay parking in train stations involves a carefull balance to discourage car use while not having such a high price that would discourage getting the train altogether.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Just like the DARTTXT scam should IE be forced to put a note on the pay parking notices that buying a weekly ticket doesn't garauntee you a car park space?

Indeed, should be required, will need to go out to see the new signage first

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy

Typically there is no info I can see on the Irish Rail website.

No mention of the stations affected today, no mention of the next series of stations to be affected and what dates.

No FAQs for those who will need to pay the charges.
(E.g Q. If I buy a weekly ticket will I be certain of a parking space?
A. Of course not. )

No mention of the enhanced car parking facilities the new charges will help pay for, nothing at all, just hand over the money and get on your train without a whimper please.

Should we be surprised at all?

And very little information in the station either. A casual user or anyone who was on holiday for the last two weeks and missed the NCTS leaflet drop could easily miss the fact that you have to pay. There is a big new sign on the way into the carpark that I assume tells everything but the only people who could possibly read it are pedestrians.

Within the station there are a few A4 size print outs stuck up with sellotape in the ticket office. Blink and you miss them. Bad luck too if you are like the fella I saw in the car park this morning with a 10 euro note. I hope he got change from somewhere but he definitely did not get the 6:46 train. I only knew that I needed coins because I happened to look at the ticket machines last week. I could not muster up the full 8 euro of coins last night so I had to get a daily ticket this morning.