Sail & Rail

[Eddie]

From Wexford People:

"IRISH Rail plans to make permanent the later departure of the train from Rosslare to Dublin to allow time for passengers arriving by ferry from Wales to connect with the service.
Wexford’s Deputy Mayor Cllr. Joe Ryan said he had a meeting with Irish Rail at which he had been told that as more passengers than expected had used the service it was to remain in place with a 7.15 p.m. departure time.

Under the previous timetable, the last train from Rosslare left before ferry passengers were able to make the connection. Irish Rail also confirmed to Cllr Ryan their intention to re-configure trains to provide additional seating on the Rosslare Dublin route."

I wonder how many passengers is "more passengers than expected"?

[Mark Gleeson]

Well let me put it this way, passenger numbers have not fallen...

I have had discussions with Irish Rail management and communication with Arriva Trains Wales. The schedule change needs to be permanent and a decision on 2014 needs to be made by October at the latest to ensure Stena Line can include it in the 2014 schedule and promotional material

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Well let me put it this way, passenger numbers have not fallen...

I have had discussions with Irish Rail management and communication with Arriva Trains Wales. The schedule change needs to be permanent and a decision on 2014 needs to be made by October at the latest to ensure Stena Line can include it in the 2014 schedule and promotional material

Lest hope the whole timetable in October has being decided in principal to avoid what happened last year.

I was a foot passenger around 10 days ago, wasn't on the service that connects with the 19.15 service but in general passengers were better than I expected.

[Eddie]

I see the 19.15 departure from Rosslare has reverted back to the 17.55.

Were there not plans to make the change permanent or was the experiment not deemed successful enough?

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail never had plans to make it permanent, unless there was a clear financial benefit to do so.

The business case did not make sense, many complaints from existing passengers plus the operating costs were higher.

Returning to the status quo was financially beneficial.

[Traincustomer]

Two positive snippets:

1. Rosslare: At the end of last week I was a passenger on the train scheduled to arrive into Europort @ 19.25hrs (was heading for one of the ferries). Of the passengers exiting the station, 15 others also made for the ferry terminal. Individuals and two or so small groups; lots of travel bags/cases plus there was a port luggage trolley in action.

2. Irish Ferries SailRail: The Irish Ferries €6 handling fee for SailRail credit card bookings (one of the earlier and valid criticisms of the Irish Ferries SailRail offering) has gone and is replaced by a €3 administration fee (this has been in place since early this Summer - perhaps considerably longer).

[Mark Gleeson]

They could be going to for the bus, who knows.

There is an overnight connection in both directions and rail sail on that was always significantly more than day time

[joey]

I cannot understand why the rail connections do not exist to meet ferries departing or arriving at rosslare... these should be a given...

whether the numbers add up, financially viable, anything, whatever... there should be connections for ferry foot passengers!

What sort of impression are we sending out to travellers entering or departing?

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by joey

I cannot understand why the rail connections do not exist to meet ferries departing or arriving at rosslare... these should be a given...

whether the numbers add up, financially viable, anything, whatever... there should be connections for ferry foot passengers!

What sort of impression are we sending out to travellers entering or departing?

Its called commercial sense, I as a rail user don't want my fares wasted on something that is not used and is costing the company.

You use the Sligo line a lot, so would you prefer all ferry connections to be maintained at the expense of a daily service on the Sligo route, at the end of the day it all boils down to cost and demand.

[DundalkStudent]

Regarding the business viability: demand does not just always appear at once. It can build up over time as more and more people become aware of a permanent service that is easy/beneficial or that becomes so based on later developments.

It is similar to the case of the m50. When it was first built everyone asked me why I drove on it? Sure the back roads are faster and no toll. Plus there's nothing on it/ around it that you need to get to. Then all the businesses and apartments started locating themselves there because there was good infrastructure links. And now, you know the rest of the story.

Look at the "greater dublin" commuter lines. On the run into dublin from Dundalk, twice as many people (plus) get on at balbriggan than any other station before. What's wrong with Gormanstown station you ask? Nothing except the price drops significantly between the two as balbriggan is in the short hop and Gormanstown isn't. So you have people living in Gormanstown and further afield driving to balbriggan and getting the train there. I'd do it if I could! A massive demand was created by a permanent situation that was easy/beneficial. I don't think that demand would just exist on its own.

IE need to do the proper research / strategy work to build a vision of where they want to go and what they want to do and then move toward that. Now, perhaps they've already done that and they've decided city commuters are their target market and where they will direct their energies strategically. But they'd want to be careful because it's a case of eggs and baskets.

As a service provider you should want to diversify your revenue bases so that you're not held to ransom by one type of customer such that tipping points and dips don't cause catastrophies.

Now THAT is good business sense.

[berneyarms]

The problem with the Rosslare line was, from what I've read and heard, that there were far more complaints from people along the line about the evening service from Rosslare to Dublin being so late than new users actually using it, that IE were not really gaining from delaying it.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Delaying that train will only work if there is an additional service from Rosslare in the mid-late afternoon, and in the current climate that is not going to happen.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by DundalkStudent

Regarding the business viability: demand does not just always appear at once. It can build up over time as more and more people become aware of a permanent service that is easy/beneficial or that becomes so based on later developments.

It is similar to the case of the m50. When it was first built everyone asked me why I drove on it? Sure the back roads are faster and no toll. Plus there's nothing on it/ around it that you need to get to. Then all the businesses and apartments started locating themselves there because there was good infrastructure links. And now, you know the rest of the story.

Look at the "greater dublin" commuter lines. On the run into dublin from Dundalk, twice as many people (plus) get on at balbriggan than any other station before. What's wrong with Gormanstown station you ask? Nothing except the price drops significantly between the two as balbriggan is in the short hop and Gormanstown isn't. So you have people living in Gormanstown and further afield driving to balbriggan and getting the train there. I'd do it if I could! A massive demand was created by a permanent situation that was easy/beneficial. I don't think that demand would just exist on its own.

IE need to do the proper research / strategy work to build a vision of where they want to go and what they want to do and then move toward that. Now, perhaps they've already done that and they've decided city commuters are their target market and where they will direct their energies strategically. But they'd want to be careful because it's a case of eggs and baskets.

As a service provider you should want to diversify your revenue bases so that you're not held to ransom by one type of customer such that tipping points and dips don't cause catastrophies.

Now THAT is good business sense.

The NTA are in the process of revising the fare structures over a period of time to try to eliminate disparities, but you are always going to face that problem where a suburban fares matrix and intercity matrix meet. The border has to be somewhere!!

[comcor]

To be honest, I occasionally use the Wexford-Dublin train and I liked the later departure. It still got into Dublin at a reasonable hour and it extends the day I get in Wexford.

One issue is that people will complain, but not speak up and say that they like something. The true impact will have been seen in the numbers using the service; I'd like to think Irish Rail used those to asses whether the service was continued or not.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by comcor

To be honest, I occasionally use the Wexford-Dublin train and I liked the later departure. It still got into Dublin at a reasonable hour and it extends the day I get in Wexford.

One issue is that people will complain, but not speak up and say that they like something. The true impact will have been seen in the numbers using the service; I'd like to think Irish Rail used those to asses whether the service was continued or not.

I'd imagine that numbers would indeed be the method of assessment.

[Mark Gleeson]

It was a decision based on the numbers.

Bear in mind the revised schedule cost more to run also and the yield from a rail sail ticket is 50% if not less than a normal ticket

[Traincustomer]

On the yield aspect is the 50% an average figure or does it refer to specific lines/the UK side of things? Certainly the differential over there would be higher.

Looking at fares along the Dublin-Rosslare line (via Fishguard) the differential is largely marginal and fluctuates between the SailRail fare being a bit higher, about the same or a bit lower (than buying separate tickets). For example:

Enniscorthy to Cardiff €50 single (SailRail bought in advance)
Bought separately (single train ticket on outward day of travel & SailRail advance return booked by day before &collected on check-in at the port) it's also €50.

Wexford to Swansea €50 single (SailRail bought in advance).
Bought separately it's cheaper and the total comes in at €45.60.

Wicklow to Carmarthen return €108 (SailRail bought in advance). Bought separately it's the same or a tenner cheaper if an online return can be purchased for the Wicklow-Rosslare leg.

Dublin Connolly to Llanelli €108 (SailRail bought in advance). Bought separately it's €112 with potential to reduce that to under €100 (cheaper than SailRail) if an online fare is bagged. Problem though that it's not possible to book online for the connecting train in the evening (16.37 ex Connolly) but is possible to book online for the connection out of Rosslare in the morning (the 07.20).

The likes of Cork to Manchester (via Holyhead) seem to be where the higher percentages come into play e.g. Advance SailRail is €60 single whereas buying separately on the day would be €108. But buying separately in advance and bagging a €14.99 online single for Cork-Dublin could see the total being €54.99.

So a case of several variables and it seems much of a muchness in these cases.

[joey]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Its called commercial sense, I as a rail user don't want my fares wasted on something that is not used and is costing the company.

You use the Sligo line a lot, so would you prefer all ferry connections to be maintained at the expense of a daily service on the Sligo route, at the end of the day it all boils down to cost and demand.

It's more curiosity than anything being honest. And given the fact I am planing a trip on the ferry from rosslare soon I had planned on taking the train to n from rosslare and meeting the ferry as a foot passenger. Plus also the roadworks on the N11, but I just prefer the train in general to driving.

I wonder what foot passengers do upon arrival in the evening, without a train nor bus available for onward travel. The morning return is not accommodating, like the ferry connection leaves wales at 0245

[Jamie2k9]

It's more curiosity than anything being honest. And given the fact I am planing a trip on the ferry from rosslare soon I had planned on taking the train to n from rosslare and meeting the ferry as a foot passenger. Plus also the roadworks on the N11, but I just prefer the train in general to driving.

I wonder what foot passengers do upon arrival in the evening, without a train nor bus available for onward travel. The morning return is not accommodating, like the ferry connection leaves wales at 0245

well I hope people who travel makes plans and would know a train doesn't meet.

Don't understand your comment about the 02.45 departure form Wales, connects with train at both ends and bus to Waterford/Cork/Limerick to.

On a more general note Irish Ferries have just announced increased frequency between Dublin and Hollyhead from December a new ship will be added to the route along with 2 extra sailings daily.

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/news/news131107/

[joey]

I fully understand there is a connection upon arrival into Rosslare in the morning, however this means departing Wales at 0245. I also understand that there is a connection for the evening departure from Rosslare at 2045.


There are no connections for the morning 0845 departure from Rosslare to Wales, nor the evening return 1445 departing Wales arriving 1845 at Rosslare

Id be interested to hear views from other travellers on how they arrange onward travel, they cant all drive.

Anyhow thats what I'll end up doing, drive.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by joey

I fully understand there is a connection upon arrival into Rosslare in the morning, however this means departing Wales at 0245. I also understand that there is a connection for the evening departure from Rosslare at 2045.


There are no connections for the morning 0845 departure from Rosslare to Wales, nor the evening return 1445 departing Wales arriving 1845 at Rosslare

Id be interested to hear views from other travellers on how they arrange onward travel, they cant all drive.

Anyhow thats what I'll end up doing, drive.

There are connections of one form or another for all Stena sailings.

Outbound Stena Line Sailings:
09:00 - Connection off 07:00 Bus Eireann route 40 from Waterford
21:00 - Connection off 16:36 train from Dublin

Inbound Stena Line Sailings:
02:45 arrive 06:15 - Connection into 07:20 train to Dublin and 07:00 Bus Eireann route 40 to Waterford
14:30 arrive 18:00 - Connection into 19:00 Bus Eireann route 40 to Waterford.

You seem to be talking about Irish Ferries to/from Pembroke. There have never been specific rail/bus connections (excepting Eurolines) into the Irish Ferries services to/from Pembroke Dock as there is no direct rail connection into them on the UK side. The railway station in Pembroke Dock is some way away from the ferry terminal. I'd imagine that there is very little foot traffic on that route.

Bus Eireann operate Eurolines route 890 from Cork, Waterford and Wexford to South Wales, Bristol, Reading and London using the Irish Ferries overnight sailings via Rosslare and Pembroke Dock.